Widescreen Gaming Forum

Now you know how it feels to buy a product from Apple. :lol:

:mrgreen: I don't think I have ever bought any Apple computer product for myself, or used one. I know a few friends that use the ubiquitous iPod/iPhones, but I never have been tempted by even those let alone their PC's. Closest I have come is when I almost got tempted by a suggestion from a user here to get the Apple active DVI>DP dongle when I couldn't get the Accell/Sapphire one here for love or money a few months ago. I held out and managed not to have to :mrgreen: I know there is a big "holy war" between the IBM PC faithful and the Apple cult, but I don't get involved in the crusade! Whether their stuff is any good, I couldn't tell you, but Hollywood obviously loves the stylised look as their kit is always in the latest blockbusters.

I admire Apple for re-inventing themselves so many times since the dawn and surviving to cut a niche. It takes something to do that, but then I would say that having migrated from the British Acorn 8/32bit computers of yesteryear before sucumbing to the way of the Pentium... LOL And all because they wouldn't release AV8B Harrier Assault for the Archimedes... :doh

Check our review in the sticky and you get both Eyefinity and Eye+Xfire. :)

MLAA's effect is very game dependent and a mixed box, but it can give amazing results vs. the performance hit. Check out the images here vs. 4XAA and especially pay attention to wires on bottom left:
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,795264/So-aktivieren-Sie-das-neue-Morphological-AA-auch-auf-einer-Radeon-HD-5000-Update/Grafikkarte/Test/

Did MLAA give you less performance hit in Eyefinity resolutions?

Here is the only place I've seen anything about eyefinity (let alone eye+xfire). I don't really have a full suite of games to check, nor do I have the time (or care) to install 15 games just to see if a check in the box works. What I posted before is what I've seen and not seen. If AMD intended for MLAA to be working right now on the 5800 series, it would have with Dirt 2. It isn't so I'm not holding that against them.

Whatever AMD has up their sleeve for the Cayman/Antilles should be very exciting. 6850/70 doesn't bring anything new and useful to the table for my needs, but if anything it shows what's coming by the end of the year. With the next gen mini-DP getup on all the 6xxx cards, I don't see a need for any special eyefinity6 2GB 6970 card compared to a vanilla 6970 1GB card.

:hide

Happily, I stand corrected on some of my remarks. Since the late 90's, I have been soley ATI equipped, not ventured to NVidia really for high end cards. My recent upgrade path was like X1650>X1950>HD4870x2>HD5870. I never looked too closely at the naming conventions until recently. Truth be told, I think I was having a little poke at ATI :nudgenudge and being unfair in that view, but it's a reaction to the fact I really can't afford a HD6xxx series card to solve some issue that I don't feel should have been in the HD5xxx at retail.

No need to :hide - naming conventions rarely make sense. I swear, half the time the whole purpose is to maximise buyer confusion (from every company) as that stands more chance of making money. ;)

I jump around from one card to another, one manufacturer to another... although I'll admit it's been a fair while since I last used nVidia cards - been ATi for some time now. But you know what they say... the grass is always greener. :mrgreen:

Agreed, I have always been satisfied with the quality and performance of ATI hardware :bowdown , but then I never ventured to any multi gpu/screen advanced gaming configurations until recently. I only got my HD5870 about 6 months ago when they became more available and better priced here. It's been many years since Crossfire has been around so I just assumed it was a mature technology without "ifs" and "buts. Then I found it couldn't be guaranteed that it would work with Eyefinity, and after the trouble I had trying to get a DisplayPort adaptor, I felt that ATI perhaps rushed things out to market get the upperhand on their rival by showing off new technologies asap.

In any case, I'll likely have to wait for the HD7xxx before I can upgrade, by which time I'm sure things will be improved a lot. In the meantime it means running anything Crysis like with AA off... :(

Look at it this way - CrossFire is a tech designed to get multiple GPUs to power one screen. EyeFinity is a tech for a single GPU to power multiple screens as if they were "one"... the idea of each couldn't be more opposite, when all is said and done. That the two can work together at all is impressive. :D

I don't think I've ever run Crysis with AA on, anyway - when I play it, I'm too busy playing to go, "Oh, jagged edge right there!" ;)

For the most part, it seems to be giving more value for the money. You're getting a whole lot more performance in the 6870 and 6850 than you did last year for $179 and $239. And, once the higher end cards come out, you'll see the top end of the performance envelope open up. AMD stated that they named these cards 6800, versus 6700, (even though they were closer to the 5700 price point), because they wanted to leave more room at the lower mid range for more SKUs. So, there is a slight shift there. I'm guessing we'll see 6700, 6600, 6500, etc in FY11.

Yes, agreed. But you'd expect after 12 months for "better value"... ;) I'm not knocking the 6000 series at all - it always takes time to "do stuff right" with anything complex... or rather, very little works first time, perfectly. Spent too long in labs to think otherwise. Always do a trial run. ;)

Increased numbers of low-end SKUs? Hm, there weren't enough already?

...naming conventions rarely make sense. I swear, half the time the whole purpose is to maximise buyer confusion (from every company) as that stands more chance of making money. ;)

I jump around from one card to another, one manufacturer to another... although I'll admit it's been a fair while since I last used nVidia cards - been ATi for some time now. But you know what they say... the grass is always greener. :mrgreen:

Honestly, I got used to it in the 4xxx series and welcomed them sticking with that. Then they decided that the HD4870x2 moniker was too confusing and figured HD59xx would be more obvious :doh That's where they started to lose me :mrgreen: "X2" is pretty obvious to me, that its the same chip but doubled up.

When I criticised their marketing earlier, that's what I meant, that they have people working for them being paid a lot to ome up with these things, and the best they can suggest is "erm, lets make the HD67xx series into the HD68xx..."

But perhaps you have a point, maybe that is exactly the idea, like supermarkets changing the location and arrangement of goods every so often to confuse customers' routine of going where they are accustomed, but also pass by other items. :idea:

Look at it this way - CrossFire is a tech designed to get multiple GPUs to power one screen. EyeFinity is a tech for a single GPU to power multiple screens as if they were "one"... the idea of each couldn't be more opposite, when all is said and done. That the two can work together at all is impressive. :D

Very good way to explain it. I think that's how ATI should have marketed them! Because to me the usefulness of Crossfire capability became even more logical when Eyefinity came along... It was a thought in my mind at the time of purchase that I would "level up" in future with an additional HD5870 if newer titles began taxing Eyefinity max resolution too much. Reading reviews and advertising at the time, it was implied the higher res performance would be boosted by Crossfire capability, and the cards are always branded as "Crossfire Ready" etc. It never occurred to me to question that the two would work together. Lazy research, perhaps on my part, since by now I should know computer technology well enough that if you are on the bleeding edge, it's likely you'll get bloody! LOL

So now when I'm facing having to replace the HD5870 with a HD6xxx just to work that, I feel a bit peeved at ATI. I think that's where ATI need to show some thought, not new ways to number the cards. However, as you rightly pointed out, nothing stopping me from looking at NVidia in future if they offer something better :wink:

I don't think I've ever run Crysis with AA on, anyway - when I play it, I'm too busy playing to go, "Oh, jagged edge right there!"

After completing it, I use it to optimise and test performance now. The alien mothership never fails to bring down a PC... :mrgreen: so it was more a comment on the HD5870 than Crysis!

But perhaps you have a point, maybe that is exactly the idea, like supermarkets changing the location and arrangement of goods every so often to confuse customers' routine of going where they are accustomed, but also pass by other items. :idea:

I hate it when supermarkets do that. All my local ones have done it in the last couple of months, and I still can't find where everything is! :twisted:

Very good way to explain it. I think that's how ATI should have marketed them! Because to me the usefulness of Crossfire capability became even more logical when Eyefinity came along... It was a thought in my mind at the time of purchase that I would "level up" in future with an additional HD5870 if newer titles began taxing Eyefinity max resolution too much. Reading reviews and advertising at the time, it was implied the higher res performance would be boosted by Crossfire capability, and the cards are always branded as "Crossfire Ready" etc. It never occurred to me to question that the two would work together. Lazy research, perhaps on my part, since by now I should know computer technology well enough that if you are on the bleeding edge, it's likely you'll get bloody! LOL

So now when I'm facing having to replace the HD5870 with a HD6xxx just to work that, I feel a bit peeved at ATI. I think that's where ATI need to show some thought, not new ways to number the cards. However, as you rightly pointed out, nothing stopping me from looking at NVidia in future if they offer something better :wink:

Yeah, bleeding edge gaming is always going to be a hit or miss affair - doesn't matter whether you're on the hardware or software front - modern companies use early adopters as little more than free beta testing... or it certainly seems like it sometimes! :D Games are released bugridden and sometimes half unplayable (or wholly unplayable in some cases) and hardware and drivers can turn what should be a simple procedure into scalp-wrenching annoyances. :lol:

Glad you can see my amusement about the combination of EyeFinity and CrossFire... two techs diametrically opposed, working together... sounds like a recipe for disaster! (Note that the same thing applies to nVidia Surround - but from what I gather the "Surround" mode is sort-of-but-not-quite-SLI, more utilising the techs inherent in SLI to get the two (or three) cards to communicate with driving three monitors as one.)

After completing it, I use it to optimise and test performance now. The alien mothership never fails to bring down a PC... :mrgreen: so it was more a comment on the HD5870 than Crysis!

Agreed - the thing that gets me is; I played Crysis on an X1950XTX @ 1920x1200 on High settings at first... ran perfectly. It was only when I hit the first "snow" bit (after finding the first alien that was not-quite-dead) when FPS nosedived and I had to turn it down the medium. There, I completed the game. Now, at the time, the X1950XTX was the best of the best you could get in single GPUs... but was still easily beaten by SLI and CrossFire setups... and it had no problems even at what was a very high res for the time... provided you didn't want to go playing Very High settings. And yet, there still aren't cards out there that do Crysis Very High as well as I'd like (although I admit I've never tried GTX480 Tri-SLI or similar... ;)) And the X1950XTX is not exactly a good competitor to the higher-end current GPUs. :mrgreen:

Agreed - the thing that gets me is; I played Crysis on an X1950XTX @ 1920x1200 on High settings at first... ran perfectly. It was only when I hit the first "snow" bit (after finding the first alien that was not-quite-dead) when FPS nosedived and I had to turn it down the medium. There, I completed the game. Now, at the time, the X1950XTX was the best of the best you could get in single GPUs... but was still easily beaten by SLI and CrossFire setups... and it had no problems even at what was a very high res for the time... provided you didn't want to go playing Very High settings. And yet, there still aren't cards out there that do Crysis Very High as well as I'd like (although I admit I've never tried GTX480 Tri-SLI or similar... ;)) And the X1950XTX is not exactly a good competitor to the higher-end current GPUs. :mrgreen:

:shock: I'm amazed the X1950 Series didn't just blow up the minute you loaded the Big C. I had a X1950GT 512Mb not long ago, but was out of serious gaming, so didn't see what it could do. Microsoft FSX however, on a 1280x768 res couldn't max all settings (on a Quad Core Extreme 2.66GHz). I had to get the HD4870X2 to really kick some serious cloud :rockout I still have that card in the media centre, it's awesome :bowdown.

HD5870 is a distinct bit stronger than that, so hence my surprise about Crysis not maxing out. Now, of course it just occurred to me, all things are not equal here:

The HD5870 is running 5760x1200 ( :shock: ) whereas the max that the HD4870x2 ran was 3840x1024 using a TH2Go [Digital]. And at the time I didn't have Crysis. Instead I was using Far Cry 2 all the time.

Now, the HD4870x2 at 3840x1024 could run Far Cry 2 in DX10 maxed out (2AA and higher), and the HD5870 can run it similarly at 5760x1200 (2AA max only without stutter). Not bad really considering it's a dual GPU with 2Gb versus a single GPU with 1GB.

If the HD69xx can leapfrog the HD5870 with a similar hike in throughput, and can resolve the Eyefinity+Crossfire, then it'll be a serious contender for a personal Christmas present to self :mrgreen: Even if Crossfire isn't resolved, if the dual HD6990 version were to kick even more butt and take names (plus lower power/heat), then that's still good enough.

Anyone got any findings about 10.10 and 10.10a with the following config:
2x 5970's in quadfire / CrossfireX running eyefinity on F1 2010 and Dirt 2?

I'm struggling to run with both cards in the machine, but can achieve nearly 55FPS with a single card.
Running nearly highest detail with 2x MSAA, however I want full detail and 8xMSAA, again in eyefinity.

Anyone got any findings about 10.10 and 10.10a with the following config:
2x 5970's in quadfire / CrossfireX running eyefinity on F1 2010 and Dirt 2?

I'm struggling to run with both cards in the machine, but can achieve nearly 55FPS with a single card.
Running nearly highest detail with 2x MSAA, however I want full detail and 8xMSAA, again in eyefinity.

I could be wrong but from my understanding this is a hardware limitation of Crossfire. Crossfire works with some games to give plus 30-50% scaling, but with others you can get a net loss, i.e. minus 30-50%.

Some say NVidia scales better, but someone else could give you real figures and proofs. If you read back a bit, you'll see Eyefinity+Crossfire is even less relieable.

From reviews I read, even basic single card performance varies according to games. Some appear to perform better with NVidia, others with ATI. For example, DiRT 2 is meant to be better with NVida, ARMA 2 is meant to be better with ATI... etc.

Use the single HD5970 as it's onboard dual chip Crossfire works better than across busses, which is why I think AT created the dual single card GPU solution in the first place. THe new HD6xxx series are rumoured to have improved Crossfire and Eyefinity performace, not sure...

So, I've been testing MLAA in a number of titles. I can only think of two words to describe it...

Input lag

The post-processing filter adds massive amounts of input lag to any game it's used on. The screen is so far behind the mouse, aiming/driving accurately was made pretty much impossible. It even made RTS titles hard to play, because cursor movement is delayed.

Nice idea, but I can't even begin to comment on the visual quality or performance until the input lag problems are solved. Way too much delay to be playable (almost as bad as OnLive).

Quad anything has always been notoriously badly supported. QuadFire, QuadSLI... both usually end up with performance decreases (or at best, a few % better than TriFire/SLI)... :(