Adding games to THE LIST needs to happen @ release

[Deusfaux]

I REALLY disagree with the policy of requiring screenshots to even list what the game's behaviour is.

I think images are essential and should be there ASAP; but to force people (esp newcomers!) to dig through threads in different forums for the basic information of whether it's Vert- or Hor+ or whatever is ridiculous - just because nobody has found the time to do screencaps.

I've been coming here since the site was just getting ramped up, and the #1 use for it remains: going into the list, finding the game in question, and seeing what kind of widescreen a game does, if any, and how to enable it.

As soon as the game is released we can answer the first part of that question, and really that answer needs to be somewhere highly visible for everyone's benefit.

Mucking around in patches and details of things probably belongs in the forums as those are active, ongoing discussions.

It's been really frustrating over the last year watching high profile after high profile release not even get an entry in the games list.

And here I am digging around in the forums time and time again looking for an answer to a really simple question. Does X have widescreen? Is it Hor+ or Vert- or what?

America's Army 3
Battlefield Heroes
BioShock 2
Brothers in Arms Earned in Blood
Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway
Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2
Command and Conquer 4
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
Guild Wars 2
Mass Effect 2
Medal of Honor: Airborne
No One Lives Forever
SiN
Soldier of Fortune
Star Trek: Elite Force 2
Star Wars: Battlefront
Starsiege: Tribes

Where are they?


While I'm at it - I think if a game can only get widescreen with a source port, it should be made more clear that's what the entry in the list is referring to. Right now I don't know if the first 2 Quake games have inferior widescreen to the source ports, or no widescreen at all. The information should stick to covering the original games first and foremost, and suggestions of 3rd party source ports can be there, but not in place of, this info.

And just noticed this - the retired list (what the hell is that, even?) makes finding a game more difficult than it should be, moreover it is poorly formatted on several pages and the games are not alphabetical. It's obnoxious that looking for a game starting with "Da" could be found on one of three places on an otherwise alphabetical list - instead of just one, like it should be.

[Dem Pyros]

Dark Messiah of Might and Magic:
http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/wiki/Dark_Messiah_of_Might_and_Magic

Bioshock 2:
http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18374

Day of Defeat: Source (did you mean the original?)
http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/wiki/Day_Of_Defeat:_Source

Just because you can't find the information doesn't mean it's not there. The fact is that many games don't have Detailed Reports, because it is up to the forum users to make the detailed reports. Some of us are lazy, some of us don't have the time, and some of us just simply don't own the games.

If you own any of the ones you're looking for information on, feel free to make a detailed report yourself...

The screenshots are important, because you can't just take someone's word that the game is "this way" (proven time and time again).

[Deusfaux]

What? Detailed reports and screenshots are above any beyond the "report" - either the game has widescreen, or it does not. And that widescreen is Hor+ or Vert- or something less common.

That can and should go in the games list at the game's release. It can be updated as things change, and screenshots can be linked as someone takes them, and a detailed report can be added as someone writes one.

But holding the whole damn thing back and making it so much more of a pain to get to the important information - because why exactly?

Give visitors the option of how in depth they want to learn about a game and it's widescreen behavior. Which means give them the option of knowing the bare minimum - which in reality is all that anyone needs 90% of the time.

Oh, the game is native Hor+? Then I don't need to see screenshots or read anything more about it. I can buy it now, or install and know how to get widescreen. The end.

[scavvenjahh]

Digging the forums is not as abnormal as you seem to think, because the question "Is this game Hor+?" is not always a simple one to answer.

I tried to make "instant wiki updates" with minimal info gathered from forum discussions, and failed. We need screenshots because information without proof is worthless, that's all there is to it.

Even though we have Vert- screenies of Supreme Commander, some people want to believe it's a Hor+ game...
GRAW2 was reported as Hor+ but screenies allowed us to see it is in fact Hor+/Vert+, which proved to break multi-mon support...

Widescreen support is user-based info, so it sure takes time as we need evidence that everybody can access, and it's hard for the handful of volunteers to keep track of everything, but that's the price of accuracy. As long as "pro" reviewers fail to see the importance of reporting details on widescreen support or lack thereof in newly released games, you'll have to use the WSGF in every possible way. Is it so bad ? :wink:

[Deusfaux]

It's late so here's my brief response.

You talk of contentious games, but I bet the majority of the examples I listed are clear cut one thing or another.

I mean, if I have to go to the forums and get an answer from people about a game (say CODMW2) ANYWAYS, why can't that answer just be expedited to the games list?

Or if there's a debate about a game, throw down a link on the games list TO that debate.

Do you follow me? Do you know how much more infinitely helpful and useable the site would be if the entry was indeed "Supreme Commander - Special Case - (Link here)"

But leaving all these games off the list completely is not the best answer - we can do better than that. It makes it look incomplete and months behind, when the fix takes literally seconds or minutes for them all.

Without screenshots a user coming to the site has to take someone at their word anyways - is that word "useless" without "proof" ? I want to know of CODMW2 has widescreen, and how it's implemented. Why make me start another forum thread to ask this when it's been common knowledge for over half a year what it does?

It's still, without screenshot proof, the best info available. So put it in a place people can find it in a few sensible clicks.




I may sound snarky, but I seriously love this repository of good info (I have grown up as shooters have), and I just want to see it presented in a less frustrating way - which is totally within the realm of possibility without a lot of effort.

other related ideas - reward people who fire back screens of newly released games first

[Abram]

That's a brief response?


Far as the topic goes, I'm fairly ambiguous. On one hand, it'd be nice to just have a text explanation of what WS and TH behaviour is, but then we'd get people stating things are may not be accurate, which is where the proof comes into play in the form of screenshots. Unfortunately, a lot of folks still don;t know what proper widescreen is.

Hell, just the other day i had to try very hard to convince a person of that when he was certain that recent movies releases were cropped from 4:3 to fit wide displays.... I shit you not.

Plus I never have a problem with digging into forums for the answers I'm seeking.

[Deusfaux]

Your proposed situation isn't problematic at all though.

If people are saying things may not be accurate, and screenshots need to come in to play, then someone has a motivation to take them, and this in-depth discussion can all be done in the forums.

Is someone going to challenge COD6's behaviour? Let them. All the regulars and smart people know how straightforward the game is. If you want to get technical, head to the forums.

Again, there is no good reason not to post the best information available in a much more accessible and visible place.

For every suggestion it would cause problems, there's like 10 simple ways of dealing with it. Put a damn star* next to the entry to note that screenshots are still forthcoming.

[whismerhill]

I'm not sure getting heated debates about whether or not this or that game is widescreen is the solution ...

[Deusfaux]

Counter #541

People can still and DO debate any game on the list.

No excuse for leaving any game off of it, once it is available for people to play.

Counter #223

What's wrong with putting the game on the list and saying "currently debated" with a link to the debate?

[The_cranky_hermit]

It's been really frustrating over the last year watching high profile after high profile release not even get an entry in the games list.
And here I am digging around in the forums time and time again looking for an answer to a really simple question. Does X have widescreen? Is it Hor+ or Vert- or what?

Where do you think that information comes from? We don't have a magic ball that tells us the answers. It's WSGF users like yourself who provide this information.

While I'm at it - I think if a game can only get widescreen with a source port, it should be made more clear that's what the entry in the list is referring to. Right now I don't know if the first 2 Quake games have inferior widescreen to the source ports, or no widescreen at all. The information should stick to covering the original games first and foremost, and suggestions of 3rd party source ports can be there, but not in place of, this info.

That's more or less what the policy is. The first two Quake games have no widescreen support at all. The original versions aren't listed first simply because there's nothing to say about them. If you want to play them in widescreen, you need a source port.

Conversely, Deus Ex in its original form *does* support widescreen. There's a DX10 port that supports widescreen better, and it's mentioned in the DR thread, but the original comes, as you say, first and foremost.

And just noticed this - the retired list (what the hell is that, even?) makes finding a game more difficult than it should be, moreover it is poorly formatted on several pages and the games are not alphabetical.

Maybe you'd like to build us a robust database web application and a robust search engine with auto-alphabetical formatted output. As it stands, the lists have to be manually maintained, and they got cluttered to the point where doing this was unwieldy. Getting rid of the old and unpopular games seemed like the best solution, and one community member had the bright idea of moving them to a secondary list right below the main ones.

Yeah, people complained about it then too. But not one complainer expressed any desire to pitch in and help with the job.

[Deusfaux]

Where do you think that information comes from? We don't have a magic ball that tells us the answers. It's WSGF users like yourself who provide this information.

Well how does the information get passed to you? Surely some WSGF user booted up COD6 on launch day, figured out what it does, and came here and talked about it. Did they not submit the information by some formal means? I'm under the impression the information was always there, but because of the official policy of requiring screenshots (that end up not being taken for months, if ever) the information gets buried somewhere in the forums.

That's more or less what the policy is. The first two Quake games have no widescreen support at all. The original versions aren't listed first simply because there's nothing to say about them. If you want to play them in widescreen, you need a source port.

Conversely, Deus Ex in its original form *does* support widescreen. There's a DX10 port that supports widescreen better, and it's mentioned in the DR thread, but the original comes, as you say, first and foremost.

Nothing to say about them? "Lacking widescreen support" IS information, like how it is for several other games in the list that say "None".

Again it's an issue of clarity. Apparently users are just supposed to know that if a source port is there, it's because the original has zero widescreen support. That was my GUESS, but there's nothing confirming that one way or another. Off to make a thread again, because the basic information is lacking on the main list.

It should be much clearer, in some way. Like "none" under widescreen support - then a separate link to "we recommend" source port information on attaining widescreen.

Maybe you'd like to build us a robust database web application and a robust search engine with auto-alphabetical formatted output. As it stands, the lists have to be manually maintained, and they got cluttered to the point where doing this was unwieldy. Getting rid of the old and unpopular games seemed like the best solution, and one community member had the bright idea of moving them to a secondary list right below the main ones.

Yeah, people complained about it then too. But not one complainer expressed any desire to pitch in and help with the job.

I'm not familiar with website coding, but it seemed to me that even if entries were done by hand, I imagined it'd be something like editing a columned list on wikipedia, which isn't very difficult at all. So unless it is a far more daunting task to move existing entries up or down than I'm thinking, surely those doing it could take care to ensure alphabetical order is maintained.

Otherwise we have that unwieldy mess you speak of. Which I think having a 2nd list for every letter ends up contributing to anyways - there should be a better solution of dealing with "too many entries" for a given letter. Or users are forced to look through 2 lists instead of one.

Then again, I'm not convinced there were too many entries per letter in the first place. ~65 under S-St, and I wouldn't have an issue scrolling a couple clicks to make it through 100 on a single page.

Just do what many other sites do, limit to X entries per page, and have a "next" button and page numbers at the bottom right.

[The_cranky_hermit]

Well how does the information get passed to you?

There are two message boards that are used exclusively for reporting this information. I read every topic on both of them.

It should be much clearer, in some way. Like "none" under widescreen support - then a separate link to "we recommend" source port information on attaining widescreen.

I see no value in doing that. It means higher maintenance, more clutter, and it doesn't even convey immediately useful information - the first thing any widescreen user should know about Quake is that we recommend using DarkPlaces to play it. Having a separate record for what happens in Quake when you don't use a source port seems about as having a separate record for what happens in Quake III when you don't edit the config file.

I'm not familiar with website coding, but it seemed to me that even if entries were done by hand, I imagined it'd be something like editing a columned list on wikipedia, which isn't very difficult at all.

When this list consists of more than 700 entries, keeping it maintained and making sure the information on it is totally accurate with our records every single time someone posts a new DR is a maintenance nightmare. Trimming it down from time to time makes this much more manageable.

Which I think having a 2nd list for every letter ends up contributing to anyways - there should be a better solution of dealing with "too many entries" for a given letter. Or users are forced to look through 2 lists instead of one.

The majority of the users only need to look through the one on the top. I think we have been pretty careful about only "retiring" games that few visitors would ever be interested in to look up.

Just do what many other sites do, limit to X entries per page, and have a "next" button and page numbers at the bottom right.

As a user of these sites, I *hate* having to guess what number represents the "page" of the game I'm looking for. More importantly, that does nothing to make maintenance easier. It just means that if a DR gets added, a new record gets created on letter A, page 1, which means the bottom most record must be cut and pasted onto the top of letter A, page 2, and so on.

[whismerhill]

Bottom line WSGF could probably make very good use of a database based list

hum

[Skid]

Yes but as a community driven site you need to find someone whos willing to give up a large amount of there free time to setup the database. Now I'm good with html/php/mysql databases but I would rather spend my free time playing games then building something that has to fix into an already existing site. To create the sort of database you need for this you would need the following done:

Database Design (its not as simple as just dumping everything into one table)
Front End (would need to be created to be integrated into the existing site layout which can be allot of trouble)
Admin End (would ether need to be integrated into the forums user data or have a separate user table for itself)

The number of pages that would need to be coded would depend on the size of the final database design, the method(s) to access the data, and how the data should be displayed to the user, all of which would need to be decided in advance of any coding taking place. Also integration into an already existing site would ether need someone already familiar with the sites code to work on it, or someone else to learn how the site is already coded, or a collaboration between the two people which is more of a pain in the ass if they are both working in their free time.

[whismerhill]

I thought as much.Unfortunately I don't have enough experience to undertake such a task yet, or I would at least try if given the opportunity ...

[Fixious]

Just happened to stumble upon this page via a Google search for Tribes. Yes, it supports widescreen, thanks to the community(or what's left of it). See:

http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577319

[skipclarke]

Okay, Rule #1 - All information has to be proven. Sorry you don't like that, but that's how it is. We've been down this road too many times on arguing what is accurate and what isn't - Warcraft 3, Guild Wars, Lego Star Wars 2, Supreme Commander, etc., etc. I get that information is lacking, but so are resources here at the WSGF. And let's not even get into the discussion on whether "Vert-" is "bad" if we can assume the game was coded with widescreen as its baseline.

The one thing worse than old information is bad information. People may realize things are outdated and come back later to check. If they realize your information is crap, you've lost them. I will not debate this point. It has been proven time and time again to me in my personal life, "day job" and the WSGF.

But leaving all these games off the list completely is not the best answer - we can do better than that. It makes it look incomplete and months behind, when the fix takes literally seconds or minutes for them all.

We? Really, we? Considering you're calling out the WSGF for being lax, I'll ask you to hold up a mirror. (BTW, I take most attacks on the WSGF personally, considering the workload, time and heartache invested, it's basically on point. Even if it's not 100% on me, it's all a reflection of me.)

I've looked through all of your posts. I don't see one confirmed solution or Detailed Report from you. Though I value your 160 some-odd posts, you have largely been a consumer of information - not a provider. You've been involved in a lot of discussions, and made a lot of great points. I value that in the community, but you haven't given any real input into the games "knowledge base."

Your point of "the fix takes literally seconds or minutes for them all", shows your gross ignorance on the subject. It takes a lot of time to do basically anything. I would put up an "incomplete" page in the Wiki, based on a methodology and a single set of comparison shots. However, you've never taken the time to do even that. If you've never contributed, how can you know how much time it takes?

The workload on the WSGF breaks down like this:
- Forum moderation: Admin & Mod Team
- DR Grading & MGL Updates: Cranky
- MGL (wiki) page entries: Ibrin
- All benchmarking: Ibrin
- Detailed Reports: Any user, though these days the vast majority come from Scavvenjahh, Tanuki & Cranky.
- FOV & Aspect Calc - Delphium
- OpenSearch Plugin & General Ap Coding - Delphium
- Hosting - Donated by CrackerJackMack

There are a ton of Wiki pages to be added, and that is on my shoulders to do. I spent the earlier parts of the year overhauling the monitor pages, doing all the Eyefinity testing and benchmarking (and I'm still doing that). I'm finally at a point where I can get to doing Wiki pages, and I need to get caught up before I get evaluation hardware from NVIDIA for NV3DS. You have no idea how long it takes to run benchmarks for one article.

If you really wanted to be part of the solution, you'd come up and say, "Hey, there's a lot of information missing, what can I do to help?" Those are the people I really listen to - the people that want to be part of the solution.

Bottom line - I hear you. Wiki information is sorely lacking. I wish we had more updates on games as they were released. If we got games from developers or publishers, I'd do the DRs myself. Considering we don't, I can't afford to pay for the games myself. That is where the community (you) come in.

I'm working to get the Wiki updated. I'm doing all that I can. The WSGF is a hobby. It's a really big f'ing hobby. It doesn't pay any bills in my house - it only eats up time. Take the first few years as a whole, and it broke even (not counting my time). I'm talking income vs. hosting costs. In 2009 it started losing money again as we lost an advertiser. It got back to making a few dollars each month in 2009 when we got our hosting donated. We've had more income this year with new partners and sponsors, but all that has been re-invested back into the site. In the 2nd half, I'll finally see some personal benefit.

I have a day job, which takes more than 40 hours per week. I also have a side business of web design and hosting that helps pay bills. I have a wife, a mortgage and three small kids. I don't get a shower every day. My days are packed and my life is busy. I do all that I can for the WSGF - it's my baby. I can't even get in every day to make the front page news posts each day on time - I often have to back or post date them to get everything to spread out evenly.

So, you'll please excuse me if I take your ill-informed assumptions a bit personally. There are two things you can do to help:
1) Buy a game on release day, post some info a single part of screenshots. And, advocate for people to use the "search" function.
2) Volunteer to update the wiki using the templates and tools we have available.

I wish the site was more, but until I'm independently wealth and can devote my whole life to it, I do what I can. We do a lot with the volunteers we have. Take a look again at the list above (not totally exhaustive, but a good representation). You'd be surprised how few people support a site that is #1 in it's field and averages 1.1M page views a month.

[Skid]

I had nothing to do this lunch time so I've been considering how you would construct a database for this site, atm just for Games List, and Detailed Report. Current design has a 3rd table for Tested Resolutions that also includes urls for screenshots so that the screenshots can be added outside of the DRs and then be included in the DR, Wiki, or a screenshots gallery. Current design doesn't take into account the Wiki.

Please note, base design was created from nothing more then my de-construction of my Blur DR, taking into considerations of being able to reform the page displaying the DR without needing to edit the DR itself. Information from the DR can be used in the Wiki however the Wiki currently contains information not directly written into a DR (example Condensed DR section). Design also doesn't contain field type or field descriptions, design also wasn't created using Normalization, if you don't know what that is look it up.

Code: Select all

Tested Resolutions

      game_id

      resolution

      aspect_ratio

      group

      screen_change

      url

   

   Games

      game_id

      name

      developer

      publisher

      genre

      release_date

      players

      details

   

   Detailed Report

      game_id

      game_version

      methods

      menus

      gameplay

      hud_stretch

      rendered_cut_screens

      prerendered_cut_screens

      multiplayer_support

      calculated_grade

      potential_grade

      major_omissions

      minor_omissions

      cce

      final_note

   

   A command placed in each section of the dr could be used to call screenshots for that group based, ie [ss_group=menu1] or just [menu1], php can then convert this to pull out one screen shot for every aspect ratio that has a game_id the same as the current report, has a url set and a group of menu1.

   Input forms would be needed for all 3 tables, since games can be added without a DR or SSs and SSs can be added without the need for a DR. Input form for the DR could include a section to add screenshots directly.

Edit:
Also if current DRs was to be put into the database they would probably have to be done by hand, via forms created, this would be an extremely lengthy task and without a full team of people willing to do it would ether take a very long time, or end up having all old reports outside of the database, making the database mostly useless. Same applies for Wiki pages unless there already in some form of database.

[skipclarke]

Edit:
Also if current DRs was to be put into the database they would probably have to be done by hand, via forms created, this would be an extremely lengthy task and without a full team of people willing to do it would ether take a very long time, or end up having all old reports outside of the database, making the database mostly useless. Same applies for Wiki pages unless there already in some form of database.

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Your point above is really the kicker. If we had people willing to put in the time to migrate to a new system, that time could be put in to update the one we have and to do Confirmed Solutions and/or Detailed Reports on release day...

[Skid]

Having some sort of form to create DRs might get more people to create them, not that there is anything wrong with the current format but it does take a while to do. If it was just a form people wouldn't have to worry about the formatting so it would seem like less work since all they would be doing is data input. But I'm really not one to talk since as I mentioned earlier I would much rather play a game on release then spend an hour or so writing a report about it.

Allot of people would be more likely to do work if the amount of work they have to do isn't perceived to be that much, if you take my DR for example, it looks like there is allot there, but in reality most of it is just screen shots, there not a great deal of text.