LCD - one compromise after another?

stark · Post by **stark** » 27 May 2008, 06:00

My aging P275 is simply past it. I'm really looking forward to Widescreen gaming, but after waiting so long to go LCD, I'm kinda terrified by the apparent compromises associated with LCD Panel technology.

TN: Substandard colour accuracy. Poor viewing angle.
PVA: Scary input lag/response times adding up to (reported) 30-70 ms :shock:
IPS: Screen door effect. Average response/lag. High price.

I'm resigned to having to get a cheap TN panel (Acer X223W) for now, which will be relegated to being a backup monitor later.

But before I buy - two Qs, how many of you have PVA, S-PVA, MVA panels, and how real is the reported input lag prob?

Can be reduced (enough to feel playable) by running at native res so the monitor doesn't hafta scale?

I'm beginning to wish I'd got a Sony FW900 when I had the chance. :(

YouTube · Post by **ViciousXUSMC** » 27 May 2008, 10:03

IPS are 8ms and below now, I don't know about you but thats fast to me and I cant notice any ghosting or input lag. When I start to play competitively in games that would require split second timing like battlefield or unreal tournament I never fail to be one of the top 3 guys.

This stuff is definitely more skill related tho than your monitor and those that bicker a lot about there hardware are just looking for excuses in my opinion.

High Price??? I dunno again I think they are very reasonable, they have come down in price so much and for what you gain its so worth it, saving both space and money due to its size and energy use vs a CRT. Just be sure to shop around.

Screen Door effect? This is not IPS exclusive it goes for any LCD screen because it has individual pixels that make up the screen, however this only happens when you are too close to the monitor or your monitor has too high a pixel pitch (distance between the dots that make up the screen) I have a 37" that I use as my monitor with a 1920x1080 resolution so its pixel pitch is pretty high and I sit 4' away and have no screen door effect, I have to get about 3' away before I see it. On my old 19" LCD I didnt see it, and as we speak I am on my 15" laptop with 1680x1050 and I have to get about 5" away before I can see any kind of individual dots or screen door effect.

I think your just worried about the transition too much. Plus its new to you so your going to be looking at the differences and comparing it to your CRT. Once you make the move LCD will become your new norm and you wont pick out the flaws or notice the differences anymore.

Also TN: Cheaper, yes less colors but you probably wont notice unless your looking at gradients or side by side with a better color panel, so if money is a concern or your really worried about response times this is still a valid option.

PVA: I have always put PVA & IPS about the same, I have never seen that crazy high lag to be tied with the panel, but rather just certian monitors that most likely has something to do with there hardware more than the panel type it uses.

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 27 May 2008, 11:35

I agree that response times on modern IPS panels isn't an issue anymore. Even the very well priced Doublesight 26", which uses the same high grade panel the NECs use has less than one frame of lag, which is faster than NEC's due to it having less video processing.

As for the screen door effect, as mentioned much of it has to do with viewing distances. However in my experience it also has to do with source quality. I notice it sometimes even on my CRT HDTV, which is a pretty good Samsung.

The more I have observed screen door effect in TV watching, the more I've come to the conclusion that it is not merely related exclusively to LCD technology or panel type of LCDs.

I have noticed that I often get a slight screen door effect when a sports event like football is being broadcast and there is a lot of focusing and panning going on, esp if the camera man is not very steady with it.

Digital TV is brought to us via modern digital cameras, but the best quality zoom is still optical, not digital. Therefore it is likely some of that screen door effect is a combination of the signal converting from analog to digital and focusing/panning being used.

If you get on respected A/V forums like AVS, you will often see OTA HDTV broadcast forum chat referring to inconsistencies in the quality of HD broadcasts, even within the same channel. Hi Def technology is no simple thing, there are many factors invovled.

YouTube · Post by **ViciousXUSMC** » 27 May 2008, 13:04

The big problem with HD broadcasting is that its not standardized, they can do anything they want and call it HD.

Cynagen · Post by **Cynagen** » 27 May 2008, 13:12

I'm using one of the Rev A04 Dell 2405FPWs, I believe that's PVA, and with a rated 16ms response time, that means you can display 60fps/hz accurately, with just under 1 frame lag. (Do the math.) I have no screen door effect, and I sit about 2'-3' away from my monitor, and I don't particularly want to get any closer to find out when I do see screen door.

TBH, I've seen a TN panel (my friend was using a 17" 4:3 TN), and they really do suck, but PVA/IPS panels are pretty solid in their display and performance. You really have nothing to worry about when making the change-over, just enjoy the extra viewing space, and enjoy not having a headache after 4 hours cause of flickering. I do however keep a 4:3 CRT as a secondary monitor for watching cartoons/anime/movies while doing something on my main monitor (LCD), and I do appreciate it's natural anti-aliasing a lot more now, but I'd never use it over LCD unless I had no choice.

Also, high price only comes with extra features nowaday. My friend upgraded from his TN panel to an ACER 22" PVA panel, and he got his for ~$220 I do believe. In comparison, my 2405 cost me $650 just about a year before, but that's simply because the features I get (PIP/PBP, Component, Composite, S-Video, VGA, DVI inputs), and it's sheer size (at the time, just 24" with just VGA/DVI cost $500.)

I do advise that if you have any questions about a particular model/panel, you come on back here and ask us, cause we've got lots of experience and first hand ownership under our belts we're more than happy to share. And we're always, and I mean ALWAYS happy to see a new member, it means 1 more Widescreen (or soon to be) user is out there, enjoying the WIDElife(tm).

WIDElife is a Trademark of Cynagen Consulting 2008(c)

Post by **Ryom** » 27 May 2008, 18:41

If you want the most CRT like experience, go IPS. VA panels have a shadow when viewed straight on that really limits black level visibility. VAs do tend to have better contrast and very little color shifting (there is a brightness shift) compared to the other two techs though.

You could always wait for OLED or FED :P

stark · Post by **stark** » 28 May 2008, 03:10

Exactly! That's the logic behind getting a cheap TN panel for now.

It'll do the job for now, and be OK to remain with my old rig as a music production system. Then next year - new gaming rig, new monitor.

stark · Post by **stark** » 28 May 2008, 03:15

I do advise that if you have any questions about a particular model/panel, you come on back here and ask us, cause we've got lots of experience and first hand ownership under our belts we're more than happy to share.

OK :) .

I'm thinking 22" - AFAIK 22s are mostly (if not all) TN panels anyway. I had a play with an Acer X223B yesterday and while the colours didn't seem particularly vibrant, it seemd OK. So that's the leading contender ATM, and the easy fix.

But yeah agree with ViciousXUSMC that many will look Ok until you actually see them side by side with something better. Other wise, you jst get used to it.

In light of what you've said I'd prefer a PVA 24", but my vidcard (7900 GTO 512) won't run a 24 at native res and I'm unsure how well it will perform scaling the image (quality-wise and response-wise). And a 22 will keep the cost down.

Looking at Acer and Viewsonic because I know someone who can get those 2 brands cheap.

So if anyone can recommend (or disparage) any particular 22" Acer or Viewsonic models, that'd be helpful.

stark · Post by **stark** » 28 May 2008, 03:18

TVM to all for the encouraging and informative replies. I really needed that :) . After reading so much negativity it seemed to me that each panel type had showstopping drawbacks, and you've done much to allay my uncertainty.

Bottom line: I need a new monitor + I want widescreen = I hafta get LCD. *shrug*

I've had a DELL 19 LCD at work for a few years now. Its 20ms response is fine for office stuff, but gaming has requirements, expactations. And I have to actually pay for it. :wink:

Cynagen · Post by **Cynagen** » 29 May 2008, 11:31

[quote]
I do advise that if you have any questions about a particular model/panel, you come on back here and ask us, cause we've got lots of experience and first hand ownership under our belts we're more than happy to share.

OK :) .

I'm thinking 22" - AFAIK 22s are mostly (if not all) TN panels anyway. I had a play with an Acer X223B yesterday and while the colours didn't seem particularly vibrant, it seemd OK. So that's the leading contender ATM, and the easy fix.

But yeah agree with ViciousXUSMC that many will look Ok until you actually see them side by side with something better. Other wise, you jst get used to it.

In light of what you've said I'd prefer a PVA 24", but my vidcard (7900 GTO 512) won't run a 24 at native res and I'm unsure how well it will perform scaling the image (quality-wise and response-wise). And a 22 will keep the cost down.

You're incorrect in your ASSUMPTION about the resolution support. I had and was gaming on my 24" widescreen monitor with a 7800GTS, 1920x1200@60Hz, with 0 problems driving the resolution, just problems playing the games I wanted to play at the time (Supreme Commander was new at the time, and raped my video card to peices when zoomed mid-far out. Still displaying all units, but lots of them.)

stark · Post by **stark** » 29 May 2008, 22:27

Sorry, I'm a bit confused about your reply - you say your card had no problems driving the resolution, but the game raped your video card to pieces. :?

OK, I probably wasn't clear enough - what I should have said was:

"but my vidcard (7900 GTO 512) won't run a 24 at native res (of 1900 x 1200) at a playable framerate"

When I played Crysis, for instance, I was getting a somewhat jerky response at 1600 x 1200. (at my preferred quality settings). Dropping the res to 1024 x 768 provided much smoother gameplay, so I assumed that if 1600 x 1200 was jerky, then 1920 x 1200 would be even worse.

JohnnyWakko · Post by **JohnnyWakko** » 30 May 2008, 10:56

Viewing angles? Since when did anyone turn thier monitor 45 degress to where they were sitting?

Most new LCD's will do the job. You will get a TN, think you need to wait for something more quality. You wil forget all that.

Jeez, I am a FPS junky coming from CRT. SIF you need anything other than a TN. (assuming my BENQ 21" FP202 is a TN, I got no idea, does the job)

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 30 May 2008, 12:33

Viewing angles? Since when did anyone turn thier monitor 45 degress to where they were sitting?

More and more PCs are being used for multipurpose. That means not just net and games, but movies and even TV. Heck I even get better sound when watching HD recaps of Lost and such on my PC because I don't have a 5.1 receiver to decode the sound.

For those of us whom use our PCs for lots of things you bet wide viewing angles are important. Quite often when I'm tired I finish up watching a movie on my couch, which is off angle by a good 3-4'. At times like that something like the Doublesight IPS panel with polarizer is very nice.

Truth be told though, viewing angles on many monitors are exaggerated. You need to read the reviews or try and see one in person in a store to really know how they look at an angle.

JohnnyWakko · Post by **JohnnyWakko** » 30 May 2008, 15:23

Granted, but viewing any screen at 45 degrees is less than optimal. Either that or I am just luky being in a country with sparsity.

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 30 May 2008, 22:09

Granted, but viewing any screen at 45 degrees is less than optimal. Either that or I am just luky being in a country with sparsity.

No I'm not talking angles that wide, maybe half that for the scenario I described. Lots of panels look terrible even slightly off angle though. Nice to have flexibility IMO.

Post by **Tamlin** » 31 May 2008, 05:25

My aging P275 is simply past it. I'm really looking forward to Widescreen gaming, but after waiting so long to go LCD, I'm kinda terrified by the apparent compromises associated with LCD Panel technology.

TN: Substandard colour accuracy. Poor viewing angle.
PVA: Scary input lag/response times adding up to (reported) 30-70 ms :shock:
IPS: Screen door effect. Average response/lag. High price.

I'm resigned to having to get a cheap TN panel (Acer X223W) for now, which will be relegated to being a backup monitor later.

But before I buy - two Qs, how many of you have PVA, S-PVA, MVA panels, and how real is the reported input lag prob?

Can be reduced (enough to feel playable) by running at native res so the monitor doesn't hafta scale?

I'm beginning to wish I'd got a Sony FW900 when I had the chance. :(

Input lag is real enough. How much of a problem depends purely upon the user. 70 ms is 0.07 of a second delay from your action to reaction on screen. Personally I'm not sensitive to input lag and doesn't notice the 33ms lag on my screen. But, there are those sensitive to it and for them its annoying.

Same goes with viewing angle. I'm sensitive to viewing angle shifts and that makes some types of screens annoying for me. VA's gamma/color/brightness shifts at center view +/- 5 degrees off center I find the worst, while TN's vertical can be an annoyance as well though a bit more predictable and therefore something I can get used to easier. Left side being brighter then the right side on the VA's is a permanent issue that would annoy me greatly. Others might not be sensitive to it and it won't bother them. It depends purely on the user.

CRT's had in their days their compromises as well. Aperture grill vs. shadow mask as example inbetween CRT's. It was big differences between CRT's and current LCD's have many advantages compared to CRT not only disadvantages. Sharpness and geometry to name the most evident ones (digital vs. analoge).

Karl Lang (father of Sony Artisan) had a test of the newer H-IPS screens (2490WUXI and 2690WUXI) with a $20K spectroradiometer with 9000 patches and said that these newer displays finally bring us closer to what we had with the best of the reference CRT displays of the past. So in terms of PQ LCD's have evolved much the last years.

I think you will be positive suprised when you get yourself a widescreen LCD. :)

The Doublesight recommended earlier here would give you almost no input lag, a fast panel, great viewing angles and great colors. The polarizer they speak of gives you better blacks, since it counteracts the black washout at angle giving you a deeper optical black.

stark · Post by **stark** » 02 Jun 2008, 22:24

Thanks for that. Yeah, from what I've read, I'd buy a Doublesight 24" or 26" with confidence. If they were availalble here in NZ. :roll:

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 03 Jun 2008, 08:17

It's hard to get a Doublesight 26" right now, most places are sold out of them. That gives you an idea of how popular they've been. Last word I heard on the Newegg reviews of them indicated they're all being made with the polarizer feature now too. Hopefully someone here will eventually give an in depth review on one.

The only issue I would have with such a display is I want my next system to be an all in one multipurpose machine. That means I'd have to get a PC TV tuner and put up with watching movies on a 16:10 aspect ratio with big black bars top and bottom.

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