Widescreen Gaming Forum

Something on your mind DaFox?

Please, tar everyone with the same brush. Make the same sort of sweeping generalisations that CliffyB did and that have gotten the response in this thread (and if other fora are an indication, similar responses across the web...)

I said "don't pirate or don't complain." I'm pretty sure every human being on earth is capable of refraining from at least one of these things. Is that such a bad "brush" to tar everyone with?

But by your logic above, you're a pirate too.

Not quite. By my logic, I'm *capable* of piracy. Which I am. I never said anything that would indicate I am a pirate. Neither did CliffyB.

So you've just fallen victim yourself of the patent pending 'CliffyB shotgun effect', when you're actually defending him.

You're putting words into my mouth and making false assumptions based on them, just like many gaming board members have done to CliffyB.

The Alienware-buying public buy Alienware because they don't have high technical knowledge. So under the 'technical knowledge' argument, they don't know enough to torrent.

Unfortunately, by and large they do know enough to torrent.

But his argument is basically money = technical knowledge. If only it were that easy.

It's even simpler than that. It's possession of high-end gaming equipment = knowledge of torrenting.

On average those are the type of people whom would buy games at least once a month, rather than every now and then.

If they can afford a game once a month, they can afford a game every now and then. And my whole point was that they can afford games now and then. How am I "forgetting" anything? How is my analogy invalid in any way whatsoever?

Everyone knows tons of kids still living at home put everything they can afford into a gaming rig, then spend their allowance and any other money they get on games

You're half right. There are tons of kids living at home who spend lots on gaming rigs, but most of them torrent games given the opportunity.

You don't go saying they are the ones whom know about torrenting in the same interview you claim torrenting is ruining PC gaming without heavily implying high end PC gamers are all pirates.

You're talking in circles. I have contested this exact point several times - rephrasing a contested point doesn't count as backing it up. As I said, the implication is nothing more than that *many* high-end PC gamers are pirates.

But strung together with poor logic (many savvy users know nothing of torrents, and many torrenting pirates are otherwise computer cavemen)

Savvy users who know nothing of torrents are a rarity. And the existence of computer cavemen who can torrent is completely peripheral to his point.

poorly-worded delivery (how does one jump directly from discussing integrated video chips to piracy?) creates ambiguity, and ambiguity is where implication lives.

So are you saying that if he didn't mention "integrated video chips," there would be no awkward jump, and therefore no ambiguity, and therefore no implication?

Savvy users who know nothing of torrents are a rarity. And the existence of computer cavemen who can torrent is completely peripheral to his point.

My point was to show that Cliff's correlation between savvy users and torrenting knowledge is not as simple as it sounds.

So are you saying that if he didn't mention "integrated video chips," there would be no awkward jump, and therefore no ambiguity, and therefore no implication?

Not at all, that was just a sample. My assessment of ambiguity applied to his entire statement and focused on the savvy/torrent/pirate/highendsales section, as I explained before.

Something on your mind DaFox?

I think I was going to say something, Then forgot what I was going to say and accidentally pressed submit.

My point was to show that Cliff's correlation between savvy users and torrenting knowledge is not as simple as it sounds.

But it is as simple as it sounds. One of your counterpoints was insignificant, and the other was irrelevant. Correlation does not imply inverse-correlation, so you're not making a point by disproving the inverse-correlation of what he said.

My assessment of ambiguity applied to his entire statement and focused on the savvy/torrent/pirate/highendsales section, as I explained before.

What ambiguity that you explained? All I recall you "explaining" about ambiguity is that it comes from poor wording, and your example of poor wording was nothing more than the awkward jump from integrated graphics to piracy.

If they can afford a game once a month, they can afford a game every now and then. And my whole point was that they can afford games now and then. How am I "forgetting" anything? How is my analogy invalid in any way whatsoever?

You're forgetting that the argument was based on how easily they could afford their games, since that's what you were implying. Having a $300 video card does not automatically mean you can easily afford the games.

I mentioned once a month because it's a more accurate representation than a few games a year, esp for someone with a dedicated gaming rig. What I'm saying is dedicated gamers even if they don't have a lot to spend will still spend their last dime on games. You may not be in that kind of financial situation and not know it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's true.

You're half right. There are tons of kids living at home who spend lots on gaming rigs, but most of them torrent games given the opportunity.

OMG, no wonder you seem to unconditionally support Cliffy, you sound like his yes man press agent. Now it's not only anyone with a high end gaming rig, any kids with dedicated gaming rigs living at home with their parents are automatically pirates too. I'm guessing you aren't too popular at LAN parties spewing garbage like that, if you DO get out that is. :roll:

Having a $300 video card does not automatically mean you can easily afford the games.

As someone on the other side, This is very correct. I saved up for 5 years for this PC, Sure I could have bought 20 games. But I could not play any of them without a decent PC. Granted now days you can get a good PC for way less ($600 for the cheapest decent PC with a core 2 duo and 4850 opposed to a year ago $1000 for a core 2 duo and a 8800GTS320) Nearly every dollar I make now goes towards bills. I wont even be able to afford a new PC until I'm done college at the rate that I'm going.

So basically its games and no PC or PC and piracy.

I know crankys reply to this is going to be something along the lines of:

A: Get a second job
B: You don't need a PC or games
C: Play games on a shittier PC (like cranky does)

Might I add that Option B and C would actually be worse for game developers. As I do set up games to buy about twice a year.

Left 4 Dead being my next game.

Correlation does not imply inverse-correlation, so you're not making a point by disproving the inverse-correlation of what he said.

This has become entirely overcomplicated. Cliff made a generalization. Generalizations are frequently ambiguous. I see ambiguity in his statement. You do not.

What ambiguity that you explained? All I recall you "explaining" about ambiguity is that it comes from poor wording, and your example of poor wording was nothing more than the awkward jump from integrated graphics to piracy.

You don't see what I have attempted to explain. How would it help to create new explanations?

I think the bottom line is that we simply perceive Cliff's statement in different ways. We've already discussed this at length and I've been unable to help you understand the reasons behind my opinion. Is there a point to continuing?

I see my attempts to get away from the piracy subject have failed and we're once again going round in circles. To bad because this thread getting locked is now really close. :(

I see my attempts to get away from the piracy subject have failed and we're once again going round in circles. To bad because this thread getting locked is now really close. :(

I really don't see the point of censoring talk about DRM and Piracy in a DRM thread.

I do see the point if we're going in circles. The whole 300 dollar tv thing for example has been repeated 4 times now and it's getting nowhere. I don't want this to end in a flamewar as I allready seen some pretty aggitated posts. It's getting locked if I see any more of that.

Most everything said here has been parallels of the article's interpretation or examples aimed at the root cause of piracy, namely game affordability. Perhaps a little leeway? It's not as agitated (correct sp) or OT as you're making it sound. Some topics like this are obviously going to draw more opposing opinions than others. It doesn't mean they are automatically flame war material.

I do see the point if we're going in circles. The whole 300 dollar tv thing for example has been repeated 4 times now and it's getting nowhere. I don't want this to end in a flamewar as I allready seen some pretty aggitated posts. It's getting locked if I see any more of that.

I don't know if I've come across as agitated. It's certainly not how I feel, and I've tried hard to not sound like a flamer, so if I came across that way I apologize. I've got no reason to flame anyone here.

I think my debate with cranky has run its course. I am a bit disappointed that the best I could achieve is an impasse...I thought my communication skills were better than that.

Oh well.

The thing is that we had loads of piracy related threads in the past and they always ended in endless arguments. I want to avoid that now.

Now now. Will some of you stop dissecting into millifractions what someone said with numerous little quotes to pick the eyes out of each sentence to make your overall view seem more right by prooving scores of little wrongs in what someone said. I tell yer it sounds like some of us in here are charging by the word...springs to mind lawyerism.

The end of the day, the public don't dissect little tid bits and milli statements, they interpret or misinterpret at first glance what someone said. In this case, Cliffy made a sweeping public statement which has made himself look like a roostersmoker (the paultry type, as in a cock) by implying whether on purpose or not (who cares) that the enthusiasts are pirates. The public has reacted and it is obvious that he has done himself an injustice merely by popular vote of this thread and other sites. Since there is not Judge and Jury in here no need to break it down into 1000's of peices of evidence. He said something stupid. Period.

The end of the day, Cliffy made a sweeping statement which has made himself look like a roostersmoker

In the spirit of making my opinion seem bullet proof, I dare anyone to proove that he doesn't look like a paultry smoker. You can't (or shouldn't bother), but doesn't mean I'm right, it just means it's my opinion.

I consider myself a high end user and I don't pirate, and I don't know how to torrent as far as I know how to cool my PC with water, which I don't. However I know both exist though. I don't pirate games...but I did when I was a low end user and a student. So hence my opinion.

Steefy I hear ya... I was going to lock it... but then it got me thinking, us older members remember the the 985467345987634078 page thread on piracy, but for some newer people this is there first go at it...

Last time I check in on this one so here it goes... lame exit joke.

Threads over, maheries the winner.

I think this thread is interesting if I ignore half the content.

I'll be honest. Come out with a straight up way to get a keyboard and mouse on a console. Provide me with a DVI hook up, or VGA hook up (already available) and I'll switch my monitor over to game as long as I can have a shared keyboard or something.

I hate the controllers, I have one, used it for all 3rd person players. but I prefer my keyboard...even for racing games...
:roll:

You're forgetting that the argument was based on how easily they could afford their games, since that's what you were implying. Having a $300 video card does not automatically mean you can easily afford the games.

But it does mean they can easily afford games. It doesn't necessarily mean they can afford them every month, but they can afford games in general. That alone makes the "they pirate because they can't afford games" excuse bunk.

I mentioned once a month because it's a more accurate representation than a few games a year, esp for someone with a dedicated gaming rig.

Nevertheless, it's completely at odds with the "they pirate games because they can't afford them" excuse.

OMG, no wonder you seem to unconditionally support Cliffy, you sound like his yes man press agent. Now it's not only anyone with a high end gaming rig, any kids with dedicated gaming rigs living at home with their parents are automatically pirates too.

Once again, you are seeing sweeping generalizations where there aren't any. I said "lots of kids." Repeat. "Lots of kids." Not "any kids." Kindly re-calibrate your scrutiny machine.

As someone on the other side, This is very correct. I saved up for 5 years for this PC

Then if you still have income, you can save up for a game too, and therefore can afford games. Just because you can't have a game every month doesn't mean you can't afford games. I can't have a new game every month either.

Might I add that Option B and C would actually be worse for game developers.

C isn't worse for game developers. Game devs don't make any extra money when you max out their games.

Cliff made a generalization. Generalizations are frequently ambiguous.

His generalization was that high-end gamers know how to pirate. There's nothing at all ambiguous about this generalization - he says that you know how to pirate, and so does everyone else with high end equipment. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think the bottom line is that we simply perceive Cliff's statement in different ways.

Perceiving is one thing. Making a grievous accusation based on a perception is another.

In this case, Cliffy made a sweeping public statement which has made himself look like a roostersmoker (the paultry type, as in a cock) by implying whether on purpose or not (who cares) that the enthusiasts are pirates.

Again, he did not imply this. Perhaps certain vocal message board users perceived it to be this way, but the most his words imply is that *lots* of the enthusiasts are pirates.

The public has reacted

But what did the public react to precisely? As far as I can tell, few of the public even read his statements - they just clicked on topic titles that say "CliffyB is calling you a pirate and personally blames you for PC gaming's decline and global warming" and made up their minds that he was a tool without even seeing his words in their original context.

Making a grievous accusation based on a perception is another.

What grievous accusation? What does being "another thing" mean, exactly?