Dragon Age: Origins

Gecko · Post by **Gecko** » 09 Nov 2009, 03:53

DLC doesn't bother me too much. We live in an age of hyper-marketing, why should games be any different? Consumer decides what they want. Chopping a game into bits and selling different pieces isn't a big deal as long as the product is worth it, and the overall price scheme matches consumer expectations. In some ways, if the game blows like er, oh, I don't know, say, uhm, Oblivion, you could make the argument that had all the content been included up front perhaps the game would have cost $100 or more. Hence you buy the basic game and shell for $60 and then buy DLC for things like pretty armor for a horse.

I'll pay $200 for a good Dragon's Age over the $60 I blew on Oblivion, which would have been better spent gambling at the back of the local 711 on cockroach pit fights, getting drunk on rancid banana wine and hurling garbled curses at the fruit flies that were trying to get in on the fermentative action.

Soduka · Post by **Soduka** » 09 Nov 2009, 04:42

I don't "do" DLC and I never will. In just 3 or so years it went from nothing to every single gamer with too much money hopping on forums and comment pages of article;

"Oh I hope they will do a DLC!"

When the year before they were releasing this stuff for free. I will do expansion packs. Hell, keep your three DLCs and make it an expansion pack, that's fine. It's the principal of the thing for me.

StingingVelvet · Post by **StingingVelvet** » 09 Nov 2009, 05:20

I don't "do" DLC and I never will. In just 3 or so years it went from nothing to every single gamer with too much money hopping on forums and comment pages of article;

"Oh I hope they will do a DLC!"

When the year before they were releasing this stuff for free. I will do expansion packs. Hell, keep your three DLCs and make it an expansion pack, that's fine. It's the principal of the thing for me.

The idea that we used to get stuff like the Fallout 3 DLC for free is very misinformed. We never did.

Soduka · Post by **Soduka** » 09 Nov 2009, 05:26

[quote]I don't "do" DLC and I never will. In just 3 or so years it went from nothing to every single gamer with too much money hopping on forums and comment pages of article;

"Oh I hope they will do a DLC!"

When the year before they were releasing this stuff for free. I will do expansion packs. Hell, keep your three DLCs and make it an expansion pack, that's fine. It's the principal of the thing for me.

The idea that we used to get stuff like the Fallout 3 DLC for free is very misinformed. We never did.

Considering I didn't just fall off a damn plane and lived through the rise and fall of PC gaming I find it hard to believe I'm the one who's misinformed.

Post by **Mach1.9pants** » 09 Nov 2009, 07:19

DaFox · Post by **DaFox** » 09 Nov 2009, 07:22

You're a little late on that Mach1.9 ;)

[quote]I don't "do" DLC and I never will. In just 3 or so years it went from nothing to every single gamer with too much money hopping on forums and comment pages of article;

"Oh I hope they will do a DLC!"

When the year before they were releasing this stuff for free. I will do expansion packs. Hell, keep your three DLCs and make it an expansion pack, that's fine. It's the principal of the thing for me.

The idea that we used to get stuff like the Fallout 3 DLC for free is very misinformed. We never did.

Team Fortress 2.

StingingVelvet · Post by **StingingVelvet** » 09 Nov 2009, 07:30

You're a little late on that Mach1.9 ;)

[quote][quote]I don't "do" DLC and I never will. In just 3 or so years it went from nothing to every single gamer with too much money hopping on forums and comment pages of article;

"Oh I hope they will do a DLC!"

When the year before they were releasing this stuff for free. I will do expansion packs. Hell, keep your three DLCs and make it an expansion pack, that's fine. It's the principal of the thing for me.

The idea that we used to get stuff like the Fallout 3 DLC for free is very misinformed. We never did.

Team Fortress 2.

How is that anything like Fallout 3 DLC?

I am talking expansive singleplayer content here people, not multiplayer maps. That kind of DLC is basically just expansions but smaller, and for a smaller price. We never got that crap for free... if we did I want an example, just one. TF2 ain't it (and even TF2 is a freaking outlier if I ever saw one, multiplayer game wise).

StingingVelvet · Post by **StingingVelvet** » 09 Nov 2009, 07:32

Considering I didn't just fall off a damn plane and lived through the rise and fall of PC gaming I find it hard to believe I'm the one who's misinformed.

So, you're assuming I "fell off the plane" then? As I said above, give me one example of singleplayer content the size of Fallout DLC that was released for free. Just one.

Also, PC gaming has not fallen...

Post by **Mach1.9pants** » 09 Nov 2009, 10:49

You're a little late on that Mach1.9 ;)

Haha totally missed those posts, bloody RSS reader!

At M1.9 I'm slow, imagine how bad I'd be if I was stuck at 55mph :p

yogibbear · Post by **yogibbear** » 09 Nov 2009, 11:07

[quote]Considering I didn't just fall off a damn plane and lived through the rise and fall of PC gaming I find it hard to believe I'm the one who's misinformed.

So, you're assuming I "fell off the plane" then? As I said above, give me one example of singleplayer content the size of Fallout DLC that was released for free. Just one.

Also, PC gaming has not fallen...

Suck it: the witcher enhanced edition

:P

StingingVelvet · Post by **StingingVelvet** » 09 Nov 2009, 12:11

[quote][quote]Considering I didn't just fall off a damn plane and lived through the rise and fall of PC gaming I find it hard to believe I'm the one who's misinformed.

So, you're assuming I "fell off the plane" then? As I said above, give me one example of singleplayer content the size of Fallout DLC that was released for free. Just one.

Also, PC gaming has not fallen...

Suck it: the witcher enhanced edition

:P

Awwwww.... damn.

Ok, name TWO!

:cry:

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 09 Nov 2009, 13:24

No changing the goalposts. :P ;)

...

Perhaps it's the mutation of 'add on packs' into 'downloadable content' that irritates me. Or rather it's the 'microtransaction' sales model. I had no problem with an addon that cost £10-15 when they were decent sizes. The addons for C&C or Red Alert or Starcraft were £15. They added essentially half the game on again, for half the cost of the game. That's fair. I objected to recent addons that are £25 but added less than a fifth of content to the game. But the amount of actual game that most 'DLC' adds is minute in comparison to the total game size, but usually doesn't cost an appropriately small amount. It's not like they've even got to worry about physical distribution etc either - that's another of the 'digital distribution myths' that so irritate me. Prices haven't dropped, despite distribution costs having dropped by digital distribution. And if they're not saving money by digital distribution, then they spent a lot of years lying through their teeth about 'distribution costs'.

Fallout 3's GotY edition comes with all five bits of the 'DLC' on a DVD - and it costs less than I spent on the original Fallout 3! They've released the DLC on DVD for Oblivion and Fallout 3 too. It boils down to me disliking not having a physical product, and being reliant on the devs/pubs goodwill to keep their 'DLC' available (there is a time limit getting the DLC for Dragon Age on the back of the box in the UK - 30th April 2010 - does this mean that after that date it's not available any more? Or that after that date, despite being told that that DLC is free, that it costs money? If I uninstall DAO and reinstall, how much of a mess is getting the DLC again?) There are too many insufficiently answered questions for my liking; I'm not keen on parting with money for a product that comes with hidden restrictions, be they real of potential.

Tanuki · Post by **Tanuki** » 09 Nov 2009, 19:48

Gothic 3 has a 900mb plus free update. I imagine most of that is content.

HL2 Lost Coast requires HL2 and is free.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI has the PUK. In Japan at least.

Dungeon Lords should of had 1.5 as a free though.

I prefer DLC to standalone expansions or expansions that don't integrate with the original product. However it has begun to affect my buying habits.

I bought Fallout 3 but none of the DLC. I will wait and get the complete edition or whatever it will be called. I am trying to decide if Dragon Age should be bought now or if I should wait until all the stuff is out and get the complete collection. So if it is like NWNm I wait, if it is like Mass Effect, I get.

Post by **The_cranky_hermit** » 09 Nov 2009, 20:43

I refuse to buy any game that I have reason to suspect has micro-DLC in the works. In those cases, I wait until I'm confident that 100% of the game's content is available, and if possible, there's a package with everything.

And if the game has any time-sensitive content, like ingame pre-order bonuses, then I go insane.

Also, here's some more games with free add-ons, just off the top of my head:
Company of Heroes
Grand Theft Auto
Half-Life
Nox
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
SWAT 3
Tomb Raider

Also, I'd say that TF2 has gotten more substantial free add-ons than what L4D2 costs money for.

StingingVelvet · Post by **StingingVelvet** » 09 Nov 2009, 22:37

Perhaps it's the mutation of 'add on packs' into 'downloadable content' that irritates me. Or rather it's the 'microtransaction' sales model. I had no problem with an addon that cost £10-15 when they were decent sizes. The addons for C&C or Red Alert or Starcraft were £15. They added essentially half the game on again, for half the cost of the game. That's fair. I objected to recent addons that are £25 but added less than a fifth of content to the game. But the amount of actual game that most 'DLC' adds is minute in comparison to the total game size, but usually doesn't cost an appropriately small amount.

There are benefits and losses, as with most changes in this world. Fallout 3's add-ons would have been cooler if they were larger, true expansions, but then we would have only got one or two of them. DLC allows them to do more ideas, though smaller in size they are not in scope.

As for their worth, it depends on how you look at it. I paid $50 for all the Fallout 3 DLC and I would say it is altogether about the size of a couple expansions, so it works out roughly on par. Point Lookout is almost an expansion on its own, and I spent over 20 hours doing that DLC with one character. Anchorage was like 4 hours, so they vary... altohether though I bet they are over 50 hours, which for $50 is a good bit of content.

Dragon Age only has one actual DLC now, the Warden's Keep. I haven't done it yet, so I don't know how long it is or how worth $7 it is, but I can report back.

In short: some DLC is very much worth the money, and some may not be. You can say the same for expansion packs back in the day though, can't you? I remember being very dissapointed by Tribunal, the first expansion to Morrowind.

It boils down to me disliking not having a physical product, and being reliant on the devs/pubs goodwill to keep their 'DLC' available

These things bother me at times as well, but it's almost too late to go back now. The rapid adoption of high-speed internet has changed the industry, and it will all be digital delivery and account-based services eventually.

(there is a time limit getting the DLC for Dragon Age on the back of the box in the UK - 30th April 2010 - does this mean that after that date it's not available any more? Or that after that date, despite being told that that DLC is free, that it costs money? If I uninstall DAO and reinstall, how much of a mess is getting the DLC again?)

I'm pretty sure that is just a time limit on how long you can register your key for the free DLC, rather than a statement of availability. I would bet they want people who wait and buy the game for $20 two years from now to pay for all the DLC, that's all.

As for availability, I bet Dragon Age is around for a long time, and the account is tied to Bioware and EA, so as long as they are around your content should be. For the future, long past that... I don't know. Somone asked on the official forum and Bioware responded that the content will work offline, so I imagine you just make a backup and install it manually some day if the servers are offline.

StingingVelvet · Post by **StingingVelvet** » 09 Nov 2009, 22:44

I refuse to buy any game that I have reason to suspect has micro-DLC in the works. In those cases, I wait until I'm confident that 100% of the game's content is available, and if possible, there's a package with everything.

Which of course is your decision, but you're missing out on some great gaming. I know your response will be "I have all these old games to play" and that's fine... different priorities for different people I guess.

Still, I think there is a lot of fear of change going on here, rather than a problem with DLC itself. Like I said above, some DLC is worthwhile and some isn't, but that is the same with games themselves and expansion packs back in the day. Why avoid ALL of the DLC that exists? Even the stuff that shows DLC to be beneficial and interesting?

Also, here's some more games with free add-ons, just off the top of my head:
Company of Heroes
Grand Theft Auto
Half-Life
Nox
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
SWAT 3
Tomb Raider

Also, I'd say that TF2 has gotten more substantial free add-ons than what L4D2 costs money for.

I haven't played a lot of those, but I wonder what you are classifying as an add-on here. Mods and patches are not add-ons... maps and modes are not what I am talking about... Fallout 3's DLC is basically smaller expansion packs, but expansions all the same... new assets, new characters, massive new areas with new storylines and tons of weapons, gear and items. It is not small in content like Oblivion's was.

The Witcher is a good example, but I don't know of much free massive singleplayer add-on content like that. I am sure there are examples, but is it really common? Common enough to say "back in the day we got all this stuff for free"? I don't think so.

Tanuki · Post by **Tanuki** » 09 Nov 2009, 23:04

Also, here's some more games with free add-ons, just off the top of my head:

I guess if you combined all the Morrowind official plugins you would have a decent DLC pack. Bring Down the Sky was also nice.

Ys Origin has a free expansion disc but you have to pay for the disc to be shipped to you.

DaFox · Post by **DaFox** » 10 Nov 2009, 00:39

Still, I think there is a lot of fear of change going on here, rather than a problem with DLC itself. Like I said above, some DLC is worthwhile and some isn't, but that is the same with games themselves and expansion packs back in the day. Why avoid ALL of the DLC that exists? Even the stuff that shows DLC to be beneficial and interesting?

I haven't played a lot of those, but I wonder what you are classifying as an add-on here. Mods and patches are not add-ons... maps and modes are not what I am talking about... Fallout 3's DLC is basically smaller expansion packs, but expansions all the same... new assets, new characters, massive new areas with new storylines and tons of weapons, gear and items. It is not small in content like Oblivion's was.

Yeah I think the big problem here is the classification of DLC. It ranges from horse armor to like you said Fallout 3's 4+ hour additions to the game. I think that PC gamers are scared of DLC in general because the number one use for it on the consoles seems to be map packs. They are the most successful DLC for companies. Example source: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2009/10/22/world-at-war-dlc-has-made-70-million/1

Another big problem is like what PS said, you lose any feeling of ownership with DLC opposed to traditional expansions. It's really all about how its handled, I don't mind DLC with say steam. It's tied to my account, its always there. I do not like buying from other DD services though simply because I feel that i have less ownership (I.E. I cant redownload the game any time that I want etc) For DD there is always the option to go the traditional route, for DLC there is not. Now lets say you are like many of the gamers on this site and you despise DD, you are essentially robbed of the ability to experience additional content without slapping up your creditcard online.

Post by **The_cranky_hermit** » 10 Nov 2009, 05:48

Which of course is your decision, but you're missing out on some great gaming.

I'm not missing out. I just have to wait a bit longer.

Still, I think there is a lot of fear of change going on here, rather than a problem with DLC itself.

I only have a problem with regressive changes, and that is what I observe happening. Horse Armor was just the beginning - now we have stuff that should have been included in the first place, like higher difficulty levels, multiplayer modes, unlockable players, maps that are actually on the disc, and even cheat codes. It's a slippery slope, but I wouldn't be surprised if soon we get charged for bug fixes.

I haven't played a lot of those, but I wonder what you are classifying as an add-on here.

All the games I mentioned have free extra content created by the developer that is comparable to a mini expansion pack (or better). For instance, the original GTA had two expansion packs, London 1969 and London 1961, the latter of which is a free download.

StingingVelvet · Post by **StingingVelvet** » 10 Nov 2009, 07:15

I only have a problem with regressive changes, and that is what I observe happening. Horse Armor was just the beginning - now we have stuff that should have been included in the first place, like higher difficulty levels, multiplayer modes, unlockable players, maps that are actually on the disc, and even cheat codes. It's a slippery slope, but I wouldn't be surprised if soon we get charged for bug fixes.

Well don't support the bad DLC... I don't. I am saying you shouldn't write it off as a whole. There is a massive difference between some "get all the cars!" unlock code sold on Xbox for $5 and a sizeable piece of content like Fallout 3's Point Lookout.

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