Nvidia's next line

Post by **BHawthorne** » 07 Jan 2009, 20:48

The 285 is supposedly a die shrink 280. I'm curious to see the price point of the 285 and how it effect the 280. The 295 is appealing in some ways, but I like the concept of the 212 better with the supposed 40nm process. Personally, the next buy I do won't be before Win 7 and the 300 chip is out because of the recent 260 I bought.

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 08 Jan 2009, 02:06

Please explain to me why or how that is displaying bias?

What you exampled is not by a long shot the direction or content that much of the chat in this thread had been heading toward before your saying that. If anything more often then not, esp lately, a majority of the staff here accuse Nvidia of making decisions that they say hurt ATI customers. I say live with it and stop blaming Nvidia AND their customers that back them, how petty.

Choose the GPU you want and accept the consequences, that's all I'm saying. I also heard ridiculous comments made bordering on flame bait implying those whom defend Nvidia on their decisions are somehow idiots as well. Not acceptable IMO, esp from staff.

Giving your opinion is one thing, labeling those you disagree with as beneath you is quite another. Like I said, this forum could benefit from a higher level of maturity. When a customer backs a manufacture that is in a minority sales group ("minority" as exampled above by Tamlin), it makes them look like dime a dozen radicals claiming to be innocent victims when they spew such nonsense. It comes down to whether you prefer to sound rational or psychotic, or don't even care.

Back OT though, hopefully the petty opinions of opinions can stop.

I'd really like to see 4970, GTX 300 AND W7 all come together for retail launch by spring of 2010. It would be the ultimate showdown on the gaming proving ground.

DaFox · Post by **DaFox** » 08 Jan 2009, 02:20

a majority of the staff here accuse Nvidia of making decisions that they say hurt ATI customers. I say live with it and stop blaming Nvidia AND their customers that back them, how petty.

I'm not exactly staff but, sorry I'll lie next time I talk about Nvidia.

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 08 Jan 2009, 02:24

[quote]a majority of the staff here accuse Nvidia of making decisions that they say hurt ATI customers. I say live with it and stop blaming Nvidia AND their customers that back them, how petty.

I'm not exactly staff but, sorry I'll lie next time I talk about Nvidia.I wasn't implying you were, but others here that are have made such remarks and that was what I was referring to in my previous comments. Why you would take that personally when I had already said staff previously I do not know. The thing is, the staff here and on many forums are respected and looked up to, so when they say such things it affects the forum in a bad way as far as others thinking it's OK and ending up saying things they might not normally. The problem is, the staff on any forum are typically self monitored, so they're pretty much above the rules.

I know I'm going out on a limb to a degree and making waves saying that, but I really feel it needed to be said. I never let the fear of a possible overzealous use of one's authority dictate what I say, esp if there's sound reason for it.

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 08 Jan 2009, 13:56

I also heard ridiculous comments made bordering on flame bait implying those whom defend Nvidia on their decisions are somehow idiots as well.

I read it as fanboys in general, but as specified due to the nature of the discussion being idiots for being unable to justify their blind devotion beyond 'just because'. I can understand people who work for a company being supportive of the products they make above a competitors... but most fanboys do not, never have, and never will work for the company they defend so over-zealously. ;)

I hope we can both agree on that point. :)

Not acceptable IMO, esp from staff.

Just like 'that ATi crap' is an unacceptable blanket statement given the number of people using ATi equipment without issue.

You backed up your point of view with details on how Catalyst 5.7 had problems with Medal of Honour, although you didn't provide links and I didn't have the inclination to go hunting for references myself. Tamlin backed up his point of view with details on how nVidia's drivers crash a lot in Vista and provided links at the same time. From the referenced material, you're both right.

Just like I've been reading two papers today that contradict one another because they're from two competing laboratories. Both reference more or less the same stuff, but they've investigated their targets differently. (I said I didn't like statistics! ;))

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 08 Jan 2009, 15:50

OK, well the GTX295 is now listed in the UK on Scan, at least, which is where I tend to shop.

Cheapest is Â£420!

http://www.scan.co.uk/Index.aspx?NT=1-0-17-604-0

Sod.

That.

If it was in the Â£350-375 region, I'd probably go for it. But that it just slightly too rich for my blood. The argument can be made that at those sorts of costs, it's not too much extra... it's just that 'not too much extra' all adds up.

Wish the Phenom II would list here, though. Although I bet that'll be around Â£250, so they'll likely be pushing their luck there too. :(

Might find myself seeing if I can pick up a GTX280 for a decent amount. Failing that, it'd be picking up a second 4850, slapping an aftermarket cooler on it and trying CrossFire. (I've always been hesitant about multi-GPU in the past, from either company, but nVidia has the definitely edge there due to the ability to make custom SLI profiles...)

Post by **g00seberry** » 08 Jan 2009, 16:05

That's what i was thinking. 350quid i would have gone for. 450 ... err na.

OCUK have 280's back in stock for 230quid if you're interested ... http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-018-PV

I think imna hold out a while longer and see how things go. I mean GTA is pretty much the only game the 4870 struggles with really. I don't NEED to upgrade. Just very much want to ;p

So what's the Insider discount like at scan ?? :D 100quid? :mrgreen:

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 08 Jan 2009, 16:29

That's what i was thinking. 350quid i would have gone for. 450 ... err na.

OCUK have 280's back in stock for 230quid if you're interested ... http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-018-PV

I think imna hold out a while longer and see how things go. I mean GTA is pretty much the only game the 4870 struggles with really. I don't NEED to upgrade. Just very much want to ;p

So what's the Insider discount like at scan ?? :D 100quid? :mrgreen:

Cool, cheers for the heads up about the restock. I might order one, but I think I might as well hold off and see what happens when the 265/285's are actually released.

I just want to play with hardware again (caught the bug once more, mate!) but Phenom II really isn't awesome enough to draw me away from Intel, and Core i7 is exorbitantly expensive, which is a shame as I'd love to get an i7 920 and whack it up to 3.8GHz or something.

DDR3 isn't quite so horrifyingly expensive as it was a few months ago, so it's really just the fact that all the quality X58 boards are in the Â£270 region that is putting me off that. ;)

Looks like I'll be picking up a cheap P45 board and E5200 to stuff in my HTPC, and experimenting on my Maximus Formula and Q6600.

(Argh... both my Q6600's are really bad stepping chips. They can get to decent speeds, but run stupidly hot in the process. :()

And no, the Insider discount from Scan varies a lot on what the thing itself is. ;) Ben is always as helpful as he can be, though. Drop him a PM. ;)

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 08 Jan 2009, 17:33

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2009/01/08/nvidia-geforce-gtx-295-quad-sli-review/4

Ouch.

A driver bug (which nVidia is already aware of) causes all sorts of fun in Far Cry (DX9) and Race Driver: GRID. :(

...

Other than that, the GTX295 has a pretty good showing.

Although with Quad-SLI or Quadfire, I know why they're talking about needing 1200w PSUs. :( In a fully stocked system (multiple HDDs and DVD burners) You'd probably be pushing over 800w fully loaded!

edit:

http://www.scan.co.uk/product.aspx?ProductId=27912

Blah. Phenom II 940 is Â£238. 920 is Â£202.

Oh well...

Post by **g00seberry** » 08 Jan 2009, 19:16

Prices are getting there already though !

eBuyer's cheapest is the Zotac for Â£392!
Their BFG one is only 407quid too

Both pre-order atm though. Cmon, bring it down another 50quid :P

And yeah, I was wondering about i7 and stuff but it's just too expensive, I can't justify it.

Still want to wait for a release date on the 285's and see some benchmarks really.

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 08 Jan 2009, 19:30

285's release date is supposedly the 15th. From what I've read. Might end up being the usual internet rumourmill situation, though. ;)

Scan have upped the prices of the GTX295 to Â£460 across the board. Why publish at ~Â£425 then hike the prices? Why not just put them online at the high price and have done with it, guys? :(

I can just justify an i7 system given some of the protein simulation work I've done in the past. Actually, I'm just totting up whether or not to try it, given that I've found some cheap DDR3 RAM it's not lightning fast, but slackening the timings off I'm sure I could get it to 1333MHz. It's not like i7 is bandwidth starved anyway. ;)

DaFox · Post by **DaFox** » 08 Jan 2009, 20:43

I can just justify an i7 system given some of the protein simulation work I've done in the past. Actually, I'm just totting up whether or not to try it, given that I've found some cheap DDR3 RAM it's not lightning fast, but slackening the timings off I'm sure I could get it to 1333MHz. It's not like i7 is bandwidth starved anyway. ;)

I would hold off man, Who knows how this shit with the second socet for the mainstream will go down. I cannot see this ending well personally. The motherboards are still stupid expensive :/

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 08 Jan 2009, 20:47

I read it as fanboys in general, but as specified due to the nature of the discussion being idiots for being unable to justify their blind devotion beyond 'just because'.

No, it's hardly "just because", your not being aware of the examples I gave does not make them irrelevant or false, it just shows you're not very knowledgeable about ATI's driver history regarding mainstream FPS games. I may not have provided links, but being as this IS supposed to be a GAMING forum, I figured many if not most claiming to have knowledge in the world of PC gaming and ATI driver history would know that one of THE most popular WWII games of all time, the one that spawned CoD, simply stopped working when Cat 5.7 came out, including ALL it's expansions. That's part of what I meant by not needing to provide bogus links to prove it. Any FPS gamer worth his salt with a background of ATI driver use knows these things.

Funny how some here think they can act like all knowing gaming experts merely by providing a few links, when A) the one having so flippantly tossed out the "idiots" label has admitted he's only a casual gamer, and B), doesn't even know such well known and documented facts, which pretty much proves he only dabbles into it.

It's one thing to read tech chat on drivers, provide a few links, and act like that suddenly makes you an expert, quite another to have an actual history of widespread gaming experience to be objective about the subject of GPU drivers and how they work in gaming. Define idiot I say, someone that talks the talk, or walks the walk? Easy to fool a lot of people with BS.

As far as the"ATI crap comment" you're comparing my opinion of product and support I've had experience with vs someone's flamish labeling of Nvidia customers themselves, without even being honest and manly enough to aim it directly at the person it was intended to insult. This is how forum staff get away with flames. They hide behind innuendos. Quite common on gaming forums, but usually it comes from experienced gamers, not those whom dabble into it and act like experts on the subject.

I'm done tossing around this subject. If the main parties involved making the insults and claims were as into gaming as this forum tends to lead everyone to believe given it's name and intent, it would be different and I would feel the end result perhaps worth the effort, but there's obviously a bit of deception going on here.

To a large degree this forum is more about a few people showing off their expensive displays rather than serious and factual gaming chat. If it weren't for the master tables with FOV charts and other such info, it would almost be a complete farce. What I find odd is the staff here thinks nothing of insulting Nvidia and their customers as if morons, yet most of the gaming world uses their product.

That's yet another indication the staff here aren't really devoted to gaming or concerned about the opinions of most gamers very much. So why even call it a gaming forum? It should just be WideScreenDisplayForum the way the forums are being staffed. The only reason I can think of to use the name WSGF like I said is the work behind the scenes on the charts. To a large degree the chat from the staff doesn't reflect knowledgeable, unbiased, open and honest game chat at all.

Post by **g00seberry** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:23

Yawn.
They're not staff. This isn't a business. They don't work for Ibrin. They can have whatever opinion they want.
Cheer up. :roll:

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:24

I would hold off man, Who knows how this shit with the second socket for the mainstream will go down. I cannot see this ending well personally. The motherboards are still stupid expensive :/

Yeah, but Core i5 looks to be a strange one. And I really dislike the 'one socket for high end, one for low' that Intel is gonna try. AMD tried it with 754/939 and it wasn't too popular as it made upgrading more expensive than it had to be.

DaFox · Post by **DaFox** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:28

[quote]I would hold off man, Who knows how this shit with the second socket for the mainstream will go down. I cannot see this ending well personally. The motherboards are still stupid expensive :/

Yeah, but Core i5 looks to be a strange one. And I really dislike the 'one socket for high end, one for low' that Intel is gonna try. AMD tried it with 754/939 and it wasn't too popular as it made upgrading more expensive than it had to be.

Dont get me started on that #_#

Heres a fine quote from someone else though on the subject.

It seems to me that multiple socket types will drive up production costs as they can't produce all their processors on the same tools. They can't devote all of their consumer processor fab tools to one processor family. No they are going to have to divy it up. This means processor shortages and price increases. They are just trying to ensure that there will be a limited supply and thus higher prices for their chips all across the board. This sucks intel. Just quit it. You don't need a seperate socket. You have done it in the past. Look at the core 2 processor. The same socket for dual core as the quad core chips use and also some Xeons as well.

look at socket T 775 and all the processors that they make cheaply at will because they use the same tools to make all these different processors. They are doing this on purpose and it's to line their pockets and screw the little guys that wont be able to afford it. Computing is about to get alot more expensive.

yogibbear · Post by **yogibbear** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:41

I'm really interested in the next nvidia/ati offerings... but not the revisions or anything... GT200 + 4000 series both dissapointed me. I guess i'm just hard to impress :(

Still stuck with my boring 8800gt.

This is mainly due to being at 1680x1050, so nothing performs badly yet.

Maybe when i bother to purchase a 30" screen i'll look for an upgrade.

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 08 Jan 2009, 21:55

Hehe. Yeah. Pretty much anything fares badly driving 2560x1600 if you turn the details up far enough. ;) 1680x1050 is about the right place. :)

Post by **BHawthorne** » 08 Jan 2009, 22:14

One thing that will never change is you can never have a fast enough cpu, gpu or big enough memory, display or hd. I don't think that'll ever change with the entheusiast segment. Sure I'm happy with my current hardware, but I'm definitely not content. :D

About the i5 and i7. I really dislike how Intel transitioned their new sockets. At least with the new Phenom II AM3 chips, you can use them in older AM2 mobos and upgrade to AM3 mobo and DDR3 later. Intel is forcing a whole hardware platform change on a builder at once, while AMD is being more considerate and allowing for piecing a system together with upgrades over time.

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 08 Jan 2009, 22:25

One thing that will never change is you can never have a fast enough cpu, gpu or big enough memory, display or hd. I don't think that'll ever change with the entheusiast segment. Sure I'm happy with my current hardware, but I'm definitely not content. :D

About the i5 and i7. I really dislike how Intel transitioned their new sockets. At least with the new Phenom II AM3 chips, you can use them in older AM2 mobos and upgrade to AM3 mobo and DDR3 later. Intel is forcing a whole hardware platform change on a builder at once, while AMD is being more considerate and allowing for piecing a system together with upgrades over time.

To be fair to Intel, AMD have tried it earlier as well.

But Intel, seeing how enthusiasts responded to the 'two sockets' trick from AMD, really should have known better. ;)

AMD learned from the 754/939 fiasco. I think Intel might learn from i7/i5. ;)

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