High end PC users are PIRATES!

[Abram]

I typically download coveted games after spending savings on a new pricey computer part or other goodie. (there goes the afford PC, afford games idea)

But i must admit that i DO download games that i would in NO way buy. I usually have a pretty good idea on what games i think would be worth the purchase, and pre-order most of the time. Once in a blue moon i will download one that i assume will be crap and just end up byuing a copy anyway...

Psychonauts is one. Though at the time i didn't know that Tim Schafer guy had a hand in it. And of course I'm a huge advocate of circumventing silly copy-protections and always get a crack.

PS - i didnt actually read the article myself, jsut responding to coments:)





The human body is mostly not for eating.

[maherie]

This topic is starting to get really old fast. I don't wan't to have to lock it, so lets not go around in circles... Everything has been said that needs to be. Lets leave it at that eh?


Oh And

Just for the record its my fault.

Made me laugh... so much. Quote of the day.

[ctrlsteef]

This topic is starting to get really old fast.

Wasn't that the case with all the piracy related topics we had in the past? :wink: :lol:

[The_cranky_hermit]

When I used the word implication, I meant an indirect or implied meaning, whether intentional or not, irrespective of factual or non-factual basis.

I know what the word means. His words do not at all imply that 100% of high-end gamers are pirates - just a large enough amount of them.

When I see that gamers on a number of forums/sites have taken Cliff's comments as a slam against highend users, I perceive that to be a response to an implied meaning.

I perceive it to be a sign that the gamers by and large *are* pirates, and have been in denial that their activity has caused harm for so long that they are taken aback by Cliff's comments and have a massive knee-jerk response.

The point of that paragraph was that Cliffy lays the blame for poor highend game sales at one cause: piracy. This is simply not true, and I was only highlighting other contributing factors.

What is "simply not true?" He never said piracy was the sole cause. He identified piracy as a cause, which is really the only cause he was obligated to identify in order to make his point.

My point was that companies need to come up with creative solutions to deal with the factors challenging old business models.

That would depend on the factors. Certain "factors" are ones that nobody should ever be required to deal with on their own.

By that analogy anyone that owns a $300 TV can automatically afford $50 a month on cable.

Not quite. By that analogy anyone who owns a $300 TV can automatically afford a $50 month of cable every now any then. I never said that everyone with a PC can afford a new game every month.

The gaming industry is not unlike TV and cell phone services. It's not the hardware they make a killing on, it's the media.

In console land, that's true. In PC land, it's exactly the opposite. Companies like Intel and nVidia are making a killing on selling hardware to gamers. But they don't make a dime when you buy Gears of War.

I think it's clear that many whom used to be insistent on buying every PC title are now fed up with crappy ports, unfixed bugs, and poorly optimized resource hogs of games.

If that were the main driving force behind GoW's poor sales, would it have done so well on the pirate market?

The PC devs that don't whine about such things to the incredible exaggerated level Cliffy has

I don't think you can prove that a single word he has said is exaggerated.

what makes ppl pirate games ? - lack of money

Wrong. Here's what makes people pirate games - lack of desire to spend money if they don't have to.

anyways, i buy good games when i feel they deserve it

Try running a business where your customers only have to pay you if they feel you deserve it. See how long you stay in business. You don't have a right to help yourself to someone else's stuff and then make this judgment after the fact.

[GeneralAdmission]

His words do not at all imply that 100% of high-end gamers are pirates - just a large enough amount of them.

We don't disagree on this. :?

What is "simply not true?"

Piracy is not the only cause for poor sales of highend games. I can't make it any clearer than that.

He never said piracy was the sole cause. He identified piracy as a cause, which is really the only cause he was obligated to identify in order to make his point.

Again we don't disagree. I know Cliffy's point was that piracy hurts sales--he made that very clear. I wasn't discussing so much what he said as how he said it. The 'how' is why there a differing responses and opinions, because we all perceive things in different ways.

That would depend on the factors. Certain "factors" are ones that nobody should ever be required to deal with on their own.

True, companies should not have to deal with certain factors, but unless they have the power to stop change, it is generally better to respond with action rather than inaction.

I perceive it to be a sign that the gamers by and large *are* pirates, and have been in denial that their activity has caused harm for so long that they are taken aback by Cliff's comments and have a massive knee-jerk response.

Ok, I recognize that is your view, and it probably does apply to some portion of the gamer population. I have no data to contest or support that statement, and even if I could debate the facts, I accept that this is your opinion and should be respected as such.

Do you and I actually have a disagreement? I see that we have differing perspectives but can't find much else.

[The_cranky_hermit]

Piracy is not the only cause for poor sales of highend games.

Who said - or implied - it was?

I wasn't discussing so much what he said as how he said it.

Then how did he say it incorrectly, why was that incorrect, and how should he have said it instead?

True, companies should not have to deal with certain factors, but unless they have the power to stop change, it is generally better to respond with action rather than inaction.

The only "action" I can think of that would do anything at all to reduce piracy is to sue the pirates. Is this really better than simply abandoning the PC market? I don't know, but by and large the game devs seem to think it isn't.

Do you and I actually have a disagreement?

The existence or inexistence of an insulting implication.

[Paradigm Shifter]

Either don't pirate or don't complain.

Please, tar everyone with the same brush. Make the same sort of sweeping generalisations that CliffyB did and that have gotten the response in this thread (and if other fora are an indication, similar responses across the web...)

I don't see that pirates have a right to criticize Epic or any other dev for this.

Neither do I. Pirates have no right to criticise Epic or EA or anyone else for their stance. However, the legitimate purchasers do.

Furthermore, to anyone who objects to his comments, I challenge you to prove his comments wrong by telling me that you know about gaming PC parts and yet do not know about torrenting.

Paddy proved that. Oh well. Oh, but then someone told him the basics. So he now knows how (in theory) and has a high-end PC.

But by your logic above, you're a pirate too. I mean, you have high technical knowledge about computers, and I also presume you know about torrenting. So you've just fallen victim yourself of the patent pending 'CliffyB shotgun effect', when you're actually defending him.

Wasn't that the case with all the piracy related topics we had in the past? :wink: :lol:

Pretty much.

Then how did he say it incorrectly, why was that incorrect, and how should he have said it instead?

Not sure how he should have put it, but his shotgun tactics at the whole high-end PC market were not well considered.

The Alienware-buying public buy Alienware because they don't have high technical knowledge. So under the 'technical knowledge' argument, they don't know enough to torrent. So he's attacked innocents. Conversely, those with high technical knowledge, and therefore likely knowledge of torrenting, don't always own ultra-high-end rigs. So he's missed some targets there. But his argument is basically money = technical knowledge. If only it were that easy.

...guess that's why he's a games designer and not a politician. :lol:

The only "action" I can think of that would do anything at all to reduce piracy is to sue the pirates. Is this really better than simply abandoning the PC market? I don't know, but by and large the game devs seem to think it isn't.

Four major things could be done:
- Tighten down who has access to the Gold master copy; no pre-release piracy.
- Worldwide simultaneous release.
- Go after the 'scene'... they're the ones that crack the games.
- Make legal copies more desirable than illegal ones.

Hm. This returns to the same old debate, and one I'm going to withdraw from after this. However, since I'd already been involved in this thread, I am going to leave it in the hands of one of the Moderators who is not involved to close it down when they view it has gone on long enough.

[skeeder]

before I read how retarded out of hand this thread got I want to point out something and then I'll take my leave.

Console piracy exists. its not as known.
Why?
first, hardware editing. Alot of end users, (including myself) feel utterly scared of opening up their sacred hardware to change its configuration in order to play downloadable games.

Second, With any changes to most systems, Xbox Live doesn't work. Or it will kick you.

Third, Discs are not burnable in the same format. Whatever drive they use, I cannot toss it into my computer, burn a bit-perfect copy and expect it to work.

None of these measures are in effect for pc. First is obviously not going to happen. But why not the second or third? Steam is just an example of the second one in action. but what about the third? why not require a "game drive" that someone gets mapped as the only drive you can have for games. Its cheaper than buying a freaking 360. And gamers still get to use their mouse and keyboard!

[ctrlsteef]

Its cheaper than buying a freaking 360. And gamers still get to use their mouse and keyboard!

I don't really consider a 360 that expensive mate. You can get one for 150 euro right now with the recent pricecuts and the current cashback action. You can hardly get a decent videocard for that and on top of that the 360 will last for 4 years or something where you'll have to upgrade a videocard every friggin 6 months to run the latest games. I think a console is actually a pretty cheap investment in the longrun.

Oh yeah, and isn't there some piece of hardware that let's you connect a mouse and keyboard to a console aswell?

[Frag Maniac]

Not quite. By that analogy anyone who owns a $300 TV can automatically afford a $50 month of cable every now any then. I never said that everyone with a PC can afford a new game every month.

You seem to be forgetting that you were talking about people building a dedicated gaming rig with a video card purpose built for gaming. On average those are the type of people whom would buy games at least once a month, rather than every now and then. Not many people would build a gaming rig specifically for gaming if they can only buy a handful of games a year. Everyone knows tons of kids still living at home put everything they can afford into a gaming rig, then spend their allowance and any other money they get on games. It's an addiction not unlike that of car stereo fanatics whom buy a $1000 car, than they skimp and save and dump $3000 into a stereo for it. It doesn't mean they can easily afford it.

Getting back to the specific topic though, I really think we are not mincing words here to be saying Cliffy is unfairly judging high end PC gamers. You don't go saying they are the ones whom know about torrenting in the same interview you claim torrenting is ruining PC gaming without heavily implying high end PC gamers are all pirates. It's extremely bad press for a lead designer of a dev team that smugly claimed when MS offerred them $1 billion to buy them that they are worth twice that. Well grow up and act like Epic is worth 2 bill Cliffy.

Furthermore, to know about torrenting is quite different than being willing to take the risks associated with it. Anytime you engage in such practice you are opening yourself up to a much higher chance of trojan and virus infection, some geared toward identity theft, and we all know those whom have the money to spend on high end rigs want to protect their finances. You can even cause OS corruption not related to malware with cracks that require C++ and other such tools, which are riddled with bugs. The fact is, the more you know about torrenting, the LESS you are likely to want to get caught up in all that if you can easily afford high end gear.

Other comments made here that really ring true are Epic and Microsoft's involvement in the PC Gamers Alliance being BS posturing at best. Those are two partners that clearly have no business being involved in such an entity. They only care about the almighty money machine the 360 is. The 360 has almost single handedly ruined PC gaming, not torrenting. These guys are clearly playing the blame game to divert attention away from the fact that they themselves are indirectly destroying PC gaming.

[Dem Pyros]

[quote]Its cheaper than buying a freaking 360. And gamers still get to use their mouse and keyboard!

I don't really consider a 360 that expensive mate. You can get one for 150 euro right now with the recent pricecuts and the current cashback action. You can hardly get a decent videocard for that and on top of that the 360 will last for 4 years or something where you'll have to upgrade a videocard every friggin 6 months to run the latest games. I think a console is actually a pretty cheap investment in the longrun.

Oh yeah, and isn't there some piece of hardware that let's you connect a mouse and keyboard to a console aswell?True, but what you're forgetting is that relative to the risk it's still expensive.

A 360 may last you four years as compared to a video card that would last six months from your position, but if you open it up and risk bricking the firmware on the DVD drive, then it wouldn't work at all after that point for all practical means (Games wouldn't be playable and you couldn't play anything on XBL because you would be banned from the service when and if it detects the modified firmware. You could only watch movies and play music, even though the XBLA games you already had on it would still be playable).

And to answer the quip about the mouse and keyboard, yes there is. Last time I checked it was around sixty dollars, but didn't work all that well (although a USB keyboard can be connected to any 360, it just will only work for menus and text).

[ctrlsteef]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't have my 360 modded and I never will also. All I think is that with the money saved on hardware for a pc you can buy new games for a console on a pretty regular bases. Saving 200 euro on a new graphics card in half a year means you can atleast buy 3 to 4 games every 6 months. And that's from the graphicscard money alone.

I myself buy a new game every 2 months or something depending on if something good gets released. I actually enjoy the wait for a new good game aswell. Pirating takes a whole lot out of that fun if you ask me.

[Frag Maniac]

Oh yeah, and isn't there some piece of hardware that let's you connect a mouse and keyboard to a console aswell?

The current best way of using KB/M on a 360 or PS3 is via the XIM, though there are problems and expenses many are not willing to tolerate.

You can buy a premade XIM or build your own for the PS3 for under $40. It's easier on the PS3 because the PS2 to PS3 cable adapter is zero lag and cheap. On the 360 the only zero lag cable connector is the pricey XFPS, which is a complete KB/M adapter rather than just cable. Nothing beats the XIM though for the adapting itself, so it's well over $100 for all the parts necessary for adapting the 360 as best as it can be done.

However, even the best of KB/M adapter setups are only as good as the game they're played with. Most console games are written exclusively for the analog mini toggles on gamepads. A scant few work well with adapters, usually the ones like Halo and CoD 4 which have a more flexible control scripting. So I ask you, if you were a PC gamer that struggles with gamepads would you want to buy a 360 then spend well over $100, and I do mean WELL over, just to have a hodge podge of parts that only get you good KB/M adaptation on a scant few games?

On the other hand, if ALL console games were developed like Halo and CoD4, it could very well mean even less PC game sales and more KB/M adapters would no doubt be made, dropping their price. The evolution of the gaming console has greatly complicated gaming for PC gamers, esp those whom detest gamepads. However, if say the PS3 were to get a more Wii-like controller, though more refined like the In2Games Fusion, I could see myself getting a PS3.

Even then though, it would only be if all games written for the PS3 made full use of the controller, including being able to point the device to aim, vs using mini toggles to aim. Mini toggle aiming is the single most thing I hate about gamepads. BTW, by more refined I mean the Fusion uses ultrasonic technology whereas the Wii only uses RF. The Fusion tracks so precisely it's not unlike blue/green screen CG effects used in movies.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/20/in2games-fusion-controller-spices-up-next-gen-motion-sensing/

[GeneralAdmission]

Then how did he say it incorrectly, why was that incorrect, and how should he have said it instead?

The interviewer asked if Cliff sees the Xbox360 as his main platform, instead of the PC. Cliff could have answered:
"Yes, we do. Piracy is a big problem on the PC, so we are focusing on console development."

Question answered. Next question.

Speculation about who pirates pc games or the idiosyncrasies of the platform and how they relate to piracy should be an entirely different discussion. Unfortunately Cliff jammed this topic together with his answer about Epic's choice of platform, resulting in an ambiguous mess.

Cliff's statement flows like this:
Savvy pc users know how to pirate games.
Piracy is a huge problem on the PC.
Highend pc games suffer because of piracy.

Each statement on it's own is relatively benign and contains some measure accuracy. But strung together with poor logic (many savvy users know nothing of torrents, and many torrenting pirates are otherwise computer cavemen) and poorly-worded delivery (how does one jump directly from discussing integrated video chips to piracy?) creates ambiguity, and ambiguity is where implication lives.

Thus, the above statements easily merge into "Savvy PC users pirate games in droves and they are the reason highend games suffer."

This is why I said I see an implication. You read Cliff's statement and obviously saw it differently.

-edit-
I see that the thread has gone in a completely different direction while I wrote this post. If this horse is dead I'm fine with calling off the flogging.

[Mesh]

Can't really compare console and pc gaming, no matter how close they try to get to one another.

Example, I've been gaming in 1080p for hmm, over 5 years. Longer than the 360 or ps3 have been around.

Sure the hardware's more expensive, if you go in that category. Plenty of gaming can be done with parts like video card not over 150-200$CDN.

It's always been a case of pay a little often or a lot less so. With of course some research on the best picks for bang for buck in the long runs.

Sure I could buy a 360 or a ps3 and not have to worry about the hardware for a few years. The caveats to that are:
- gaming pad controls: fine for some games, unplayable in others (even on my ps2, I have games I can't play because of wacky unchangeable controls they picked)
- Definitely finite lifespan: while debatable that pcs also have that, at least some parts can be reused: case, psu, hdd, mouse, kb, often cpu/mem till the video gets too far anywho.
- disc required to play: while some pc games need disc checks, the option to play without one is by far easier to achieve on a pc, with many games it doesn't stay an annoyance to avoid swaping disc, it becomes a necessity.
- general lack of flexibility: on a pc, if the video output doesn't suit my display or is plain crap (ps2 15:9 pillarboxed component output) I can adapt it, either swapping video hardware or through software fixes of some sort (softth). Nevermind total console lack of any super-wide screen th2g and such support. Same for 5+monitors for flight sims.

I've always considered pc gaming to be an expensive way to be on the bleeding egde of console gaming power. And letting me do other stuff with the same hardware to boot.

Especially now that more gpu number crunching is starting up, we may soon found that the 'expensive pc console' whacks ps3 and other media player wannabes right through the wall.

I myself have gotten bored with the expense of pc gaming, but I'll still take it over the red ring of death, screaming fans or disc drive, gamepad controls and general stiffness of consoles any day.

Besides, it's been shown that a 800$ pc can rival a 3000$ one, noone forces you to be a big spender.

[DaFox]

Mesh I would just like to add one more note to your list.

The fact that you can update to play a game with better performance. Some console games are locked at 30FPS because they cannot achieve a constant 60. The PC release of the game game is unlocked and well if you cant play it with a constant 60, you have the option to upgrade and make it so, unlike a console.

[Mesh]

As I said, flexible.

And that's without mentionning mods, from the less reputable ones such as 'hot coffee' to outstanding ones like multi-gigabyte texture upgrades for oblivion, hl2 and others.

[Frag Maniac]

About the only thing making PC gaming less flexible than it used to be are crappy console ports, some of which have the FPS capped at 30 even on the PC version. Overall though the PC platform is still much more flexible and capable, and many console games are now developed on PCs. It's kind of a travesty when the one's that are don't ever make it to PC.

If there's ever a PC Gaming Server version of Skynet, the first thing it will do is hunt down and destroy all consoles. LOL

[Mesh]

Skynet is here, most people just don't recognize it yet.

[DaFox]

Skynet is here, most people just don't recognize it yet.