Zeno Clash

[StingingVelvet]

Can you find the FMV files?

What is the source aspect ratio of the files?

Is the letterboxing encoded in the source files?

Again, it is one video only, a dream you have before the game starts. It is located in the game's bin file and is in bink format. It is a 4:3 video with black bars on all 4 sides ingrained in the image.

As a 4:3 video I believe pillarboxing is all they could do in widescreen, unless you are saying it should have been a 16:9 video, which would be weird of you to do given your respect for a developer's vision.

It seems completely obvious to me you are meant to be seeing the imaged through a hazey mental fog, and the developer chose a 4:3 windowboxed format to convey that.

[Mergatroid]

Regardless of what you call it, I disagree that this a problem There is no change in the vertical aspects of the image that result in less viewable area, image loss or a smaller image in relation to the current resolution or aspect ratio. There is no flaw here.

[The_cranky_hermit]

The flaw is that this:

Should not be a 4:3 video. It should be a 16:9 one. The black bars on the top and bottom serve no purpose to further "developer's vision." They shouldn't have been hard-rendered into the image.

Technically, it's the same thing as being a non-anamorphic widescreen DVD. Which pretty much everyone agrees are crap on a widescreen monitor.

Also, even with a hard-letterboxed FMV, it's still possible to crop off the letterboxing through software playback.

[scavvenjahh]

It's a design flaw (or artistic choice or whatever) even in 4:3. Don't let your expertise of widescreen support blind you ;) Zeno Clash was developed for the PC only, probably with only 4:3 resolutions in mind, so just forget about ideal 16:9. We're not grading a DVD movie here.

[The_cranky_hermit]

It's a design flaw (or artistic choice or whatever) even in 4:3.

I see it as an artistic choice in 4:3 that was handled improperly in the transition to widescreen.

Zeno Clash was developed for the PC only, probably with only 4:3 resolutions in mind, so just forget about ideal 16:9.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you saying we should overlook widescreen faults in games that weren't made with widescreen in mind?

We're not grading a DVD movie here.

That's why it's considered a blemish, rather than something that ruins everything.

[scavvenjahh]

Maybe I'm just trying to say that we should be more lenient toward blemishes in indie games than in blockbusters just like we are more lenient toward blemishes in TripleHead than in widescreen - especially for kinda controversial micro-blemishes like this.

(I'm always glad to post a link to a certified DR on a small dev's forum, and get proud, happy, amazed, intrigued replies. Makes me feel like I'm working for the cause, spreading civilization with gold and words of joy !) :lol:

[The_cranky_hermit]

You could post a link and say "this could be certified... just fix it so the intro FMV crops the black bars in widescreen instead of expanding them."

[StingingVelvet]

It's a design flaw (or artistic choice or whatever) even in 4:3.

I see it as an artistic choice in 4:3 that was handled improperly in the transition to widescreen.

If it was anamorphic it would lose the black bars on the top and bottom in 16:9 and TH resolutions, which they did not want.

Your widescreen non-anamorphic DVD example just proves you are not factoring in the idea that they intentionally chose the format they used. See how the corners are faded to black? In the video there is also black that takes over the screen, like the character is blinking, from time to time.

It was an artistic choice, not a misformat. It was designed to be a 4:3 video so it could look like a small circle of vision in a black fog, and it scales and displays properly in all aspect ratios.

There really is no widescreen related flaw here, and nothing you have said proves otherwise.

[The_cranky_hermit]

If it was anamorphic it would lose the black bars on the top and bottom in 16:9 and TH resolutions,

I agree.

which they did not want.

I don't agree. It's pretty clear to me that the lack of anamorphism is an oversight on their part. The letterboxing serves no purpose in widescreen. There's no reason for it to be there in widescreen.

It was designed to be a 4:3 video so it could look like a small circle of vision in a black fog

If it actually was a complete circle in a 4:3 frame of black fog, this would make sense. But as it is, the "circle" is actually a 16:9 shape, with "black fog" filling the rest of the 16:9 frame. Then you have black bars on the top and bottom which don't look like fog at all. They're just your standard, everyday letterboxing, which are supposed to recede in widescreen.

There really is no widescreen related flaw here, and nothing you have said proves otherwise.

This:

is better than this:


Therefore, the latter is flawed.

[Tanuki]

As a 4:3 video I believe pillarboxing is all they could do in widescreen, unless you are saying it should have been a 16:9 video, which would be weird of you to do given your respect for a developer's vision.

I have not said anything about the game. The information I requested may have helped everyone reach a consensus.

Did you confuse my post with another?

[StingingVelvet]

I don't agree. It's pretty clear to me that the lack of anamorphism is an oversight on their part. The letterboxing serves no purpose in widescreen. There's no reason for it to be there in widescreen.

All I can say is that I completely disagree. The game was made with a lot of care and attention to detail, and the way that cinema was presented it is clear to me they meant it to be small admist a lot of black, and presenting it in anamorphic 16:9 would not have accomplished that. They could have made it small admist a lot of black in 16:9 anamorphic, but then a 4:3 viewer would have an incredibly small viewing area.

Maybe you could watch the opening of the game on youtube or something? I'm sure someone posted it.

And even if it is a flaw, which I do not think it is, I would argue it is so incredibly minor, 20 seconds of the game at the very start, that it shouldn't be a weighted one.

I have not said anything about the game. The information I requested may have helped everyone reach a consensus.

Did you confuse my post with another?

I thought you were Cranky, as he was going back and forth... sorry.

[The_cranky_hermit]

I saw it on Youtube, along with about 5 minutes of gameplay. I'm not convinced that being "small" serves any artistic purpose. If the letterboxing had a hazy look, or if it did not cover up the circle, that might have convinced me, but it doesn't - it's just your garden variety letterboxing that you see with 16:9-on-4:3 FMVs everywhere.

As for the length of the FMV, this would raise the uncomfortable slippery slope issue - where do you draw the line? If we can overlook 20 seconds of flawed FMV, can we overlook a minute? Five minutes? 20 minutes? And wherever we draw the line, how far into the game would the DR writer need to play to ensure that the game does not contain more than that? What about all the games we have dinged previously for flawed FMV - do we go back and check those to see how much they have? I don't think we can answer any of these questions.

[StingingVelvet]

I agree on the sujective arguement, but I think a standard could be made of what is a negligible flaw.

As for the video, if you watch the opening the video has a very dreamy and echoed sound going on... it also moves somewhat in slow motion... and when it is over, the game launched from a pitch black dream state into a distorted dream-like gameplay state, with black all around, like a simulated windowbox. I think that certifies intent pretty clearly...

Still, not much else to argue. If you disagree you disagree, and you decide the ratings. I just think it's a shame that a game which has as perfect widescreen as anyone could ask for all the way through WTH is not certified.

[skipclarke]

We have standards to maintain consistency, and I agree this one appears to be an artistic choice. But, I don't want to get into the business of divining developer intent, or putting in subjective decisions.

I think the best thing would be to point the dev here, and see if they would be willing to meet our guidelines to become Certified.

[scavvenjahh]

Here goes...
http://forums.aceteam.cl/index.php?showtopic=594

[StingingVelvet]

We have standards to maintain consistency, and I agree this one appears to be an artistic choice. But, I don't want to get into the business of divining developer intent, or putting in subjective decisions.

I agree about not being subjective... I don't think this is really about that.

If you take the video, which presents the information they wanted to present, and choose to alter it to present it in widescreen you have two choices:

1. Make it anamorphic, which results in the loss of black bars on the top and bottom, ruining the effect they intended.

2. Make it anamorphic with a thick black area around the edges, making the video a window within a window on 4:3 monitors, which harms their experience much more than ours is presently harmed.

The first option seems to be telling the developers how to artistically setup their game, and the second seems to be callous to those with 4:3 screens.

In the thread Scavv started, what are we really asking them to do? His example shows no black bars on the top and bottom, which basically means Scavv is telling the developer how to frame a dream sequence in his game. That just seems innappropriate to me.

More to the point, as was said on the first page, I'm not even sure this should be considered a widescreen related flaw in the first place. Just because it was considered that before does not mean it's right... the movie scales perfectly and is not adversely effecred in widescreen, and it is windowboxed in all aspect ratios. The video is no better in widescreen, but also no worse.

If it filled the screen in 4:3 or even just filled it horizontally in 4:3 I would agree it's a flaw, but it doesn't. If it was stretched or cropped I would agree it is a flaw, but it is not. Actually we are asking them to crop the video.

[Dem Pyros]

If it filled the screen in 4:3 or even just filled it horizontally in 4:3 I would agree it's a flaw, but it doesn't. If it was stretched or cropped I would agree it is a flaw, but it is not. Actually we are asking them to crop the video.

Technically we're asking them to crop a part of the video which is a solid color and contains no pertinent information, but other than that minor discrepancy I agree entirely with your post.

[scavvenjahh]

kohan69, thanks for your input - I made it a new thread in the Solutions forum : http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16003

[skipclarke]

@StingingVelvet

Option 3 - Put the fading around the top and bottom edges as well, to show the intent of creating tunnel vision.

[scavvenjahh]

I mostly started a thread in their forum to see what the devs have to say and hopefully put an end to arguments about one bloody FMV in a short Steam-only game. :lol:
After all you and I agreed that it was sad *but ok* not to certify the game. Then came subjective experience and 'artistic vision' to tear our world apart... again.

Looks like Ace Team acknowledged the issue, although there's no telling if/when this issue will be fixed. Meanwhile Zeno Clash gets this, pretty good for a just released, unpatched indie title right ? ;)