High end PC users are PIRATES!

[The_cranky_hermit]

I'm willing to bet that your knowledge of murder doesn't go much deeper than the dictionary definition, while your knowledge of torrenting is deep enough that you could easily and conveniently do it all by yourself and get away with it. The latter is the kind of "knowing about" that CliffyB is talking about.

[DaFox]

though it's rather hard to call it that when the data on piracy is so easily accessible

I must disagree, Getting the numbers on piracy is nearly impossible due to the large number of torrent sites, other P2P networks numbers from within the scene and newsgroups.

Its like saying how many people have run red lights within the last week, Sure you could put cameras at 1/4th of the lights but you will never know how many pirated copys are actually out there.

And lets not forget Lan partys, one of the greatest things to do there is browse the hundreds of terabytes of content on everybody's shared drives.

[Mach1.9pants]

Maybe. But I have only ever torrented one thing...America's Army. A free game in which they recommend using a torrent to get it. I have also had extensive training in killing people with missiles and guns- although unlike torrenting I haven't actually used those skills. Been on the receiving end, yes, but that is it. I am also pretty handy with PC hardware (that being my part time job).

But none of these makes me a software pirate.

I don't disagree that pirating is not a huge problem for PC games. What bugs the crap out of me is 'CliffyB' :roll: laying the label of pirate on me 'cos I have a high spec rig. Many PC users are pirates, say that, but pointing out those of us who are enthusiasts as the main culprits is just plain wrong. On my high spec rig there are in excess of 100 games plus an equal number of mods and stuff. All of them paid for. (Edit: or freeware!)

Crap comments like that (and crap copy protection) mean I just don't buy the games. There is no game out there so good I would go against my principles to get it. I don't steal and I won't put up with absolute rubbish from people (whether product or comment) whoever they are.

[Mesh]

Their bottom lines don't seem all that affected does it? they aren't remotely close to closing as far as can be seen yet they keep coming back with all the same crap every time, pirates this, pirates that, and now 'high end gamers are automatically pirates'. I do -not- pirate, every game I play I own a box for. It insults me that a dev. generalises and puts me in the same category as thieving, usually unemployed, society dependant trash. If anything their own statement makes no real sense, anyone with money to burn and considered the 'high end' or thereabout has little financial motive to pirate at all. Regardless of other aspects like drm and such. That I know of most who pirate do it because 50+ for each game is simply not in the budget.

If whining about pirates to every news outlet that's foolish enough to further it would work, pirates would be long gone. It doesn't, neither does drm, it only makes more.

And by targeting pirates I meant that they try and uphold that the only cause for their 'multi-million dollar baby' and it's failure (since when is profit failure?) is because of pirates, regardless of other factors such as and unstable, buggy products, lack of support in some case for issues that many -paying- customers have and overall just plain anything besides pirates.

[The_cranky_hermit]

I must disagree, Getting the numbers on piracy is nearly impossible due to the large number of torrent sites, other P2P networks numbers from within the scene and newsgroups.

That doesn't even make it particularly difficult. Much less nearly impossible. Getting the numbers on piracy is one of the easiest things there is to do. Most of the damaging piracy is done on BT - you can get a reasonable estimate even if you ignore everything else.

Its like saying how many people have run red lights within the last week, Sure you could put cameras at 1/4th of the lights but you will never know how many pirated copys are actually out there.

When it comes to monitoring BT trackers, you don't have to limit yourself to 1/4th of them. It's more like identifying the lights where the vast majority of traffic violations are known to happen and putting magic cameras on every single one of them that take a perfect picture of the license plate every time a car runs past it.

What bugs the crap out of me is 'CliffyB' Rolling Eyes laying the label of pirate on me 'cos I have a high spec rig.

He didn't say you are a pirate. He said you know how to pirate.

Their bottom lines don't seem all that affected does it?

That could be because they've been focussing mainly on consoles where piracy isn't a big issue. Perhaps if piracy wasn't an issue on PCs either, it would have been profitable enough to continue focusing on it.

now 'high end gamers are automatically pirates'.

Try reading his actual statement instead of throwing a tantrum over the topic title that inaccurately paraphrases it.

That I know of most who pirate do it because 50+ for each game is simply not in the budget.

You don't actually believe that excuse, do you? If they are perfectly happy to spend $200-$300 on a video card that serves no purpose but to play games, then the games themselves are clearly within their budget.

If whining about pirates to every news outlet that's foolish enough to further it would work, pirates would be long gone.

Or maybe the process of fighting piracy is a gradual one that might work eventually but isn't going to happen overnight. Raising awareness that piracy is a problem is a good thing, and press statements like this one might help towards that end.

And by targeting pirates I meant that they try and uphold that the only cause for their 'multi-million dollar baby' and it's failure (since when is profit failure?)

Profit is failure when the PC version doesn't make any.

[Mesh]

Saying only the pc fails because of piracy is just as ludicrous. The market base might be different but theres piracy on the consoles as well. Harder perhaps but crackers tend to favor challenges.

Whining about something is never a solution, awareness or not.

Others have shown proven working methods to give their users what they want, make a profit, and not even use drm. Doesn't matter what cost the product has, it's only a matter of scaling the method to your product.

And just saying that high end specs tend to mean you know of bittorrent (which is not in itself = to piracy) does not say directly that all high end users are pirates, it is implied taken in context of the statement and who it's from however.

That's like saying "people who download for 30gbytes+ per month know of bittorrent". Same applies here, given the current media frenzy over pirating, most people reading that assume: people that download 30gbytes+ per month are pirates.

I go over that. Not one file is illegal. Heck I even pay an over bandwidth charge every month since no plan up here allows that much transfer.

If you want to create awareness about piracy, don't dilute your message in other statements, confusing the issue more than helping it.

Of course, dilute and confuse tends to be a synonym for journalism these days.

Oh and fetch that "That I know of most who pirate do it because 50+ for each game is simply not in the budget." part again, you failed to read it yourself.

[The_cranky_hermit]

The market base might be different but theres piracy on the consoles as well.

Piracy on PC = completely out of control
Piracy on consoles = barely a noticeable problem.
Why is it ludicrous to say "only PC fails due to piracy" again?

Whining about something is never a solution, awareness or not.

It's frequently the first step in a larger solution. You'll never get public support for solving a problem if nobody knows that it's a problem. And solving piracy is going to require public support.

Others have shown proven working methods to give their users what they want, make a profit, and not even use drm.

And yet others have done all these things and somehow had their product fail commercially anyway.

And just saying that high end specs tend to mean you know of bittorrent (which is not in itself = to piracy) does not say directly that all high end users are pirates, it is implied taken in context of the statement and who it's from however.

Frankly, I think you're looking to be offended and are seeing implications where there aren't any. The implication could easily be that since everyone on the market *can* pirate, enough of them will pirate to render PC development not worth it.

given the current media frenzy over pirating, most people reading that assume: people that download 30gbytes+ per month are pirates.

I bet most *pirates* would assume that's what it meant, but I doubt most people would.

If you want to create awareness about piracy, don't dilute your message in other statements, confusing the issue more than helping it.

How is "most PC gamers know how to pirate" diluting or confusing the issue? Sounds 100% relevant to the issue to me.

Oh and fetch that "That I know of most who pirate do it because 50+ for each game is simply not in the budget." part again, you failed to read it yourself.

Granted, it was awkwardly phrased, but I don't see how my response to it was flawed or demonstrates that I failed to read it.

[GeneralAdmission]

Furthermore, to anyone who objects to his comments, I challenge you to prove his comments wrong by telling me that you know about gaming PC parts and yet do not know about torrenting.

Cranky, you've made several valid points, and I don't contest the above quote. I know how to build a PC and I know what torrenting is. However, I do not pirate games. I pay for them or I don't play them.

What bothers me about Mr. Cliffy's statement is its enormous implication: that high-end PC users are a mob rampaging pirates, and that they are the only reason that high-end games suffer. Maybe Mr. C was just really careless with his words, but it doesn't seem that way. He comes off as flippant and very matter-of-fact: highend users=torrent knowledge=pirate=bad sales. Of course piracy is a problem. Of course it hurts sales. But his equation is severely lacking.

For instance, I have yet to see Cevat Yerli even acknowledge that Crysis' system-crushing requirements could have played a part in lower sales (I didn't have the hardware to run it until June this year--which is when I bought the game). Perhaps Unreal Tournament 3 lost some sales because it is generally regarded as being inferior to UT2K4 (this is why I skipped UT3)? What about the fact that many console games have problems when ported to the PC that result in a poorer playing experience? And yes, how about the fact that increasingly severe DRM is intolerable to some customers and thus reduces sales (why I skipped Bioshock, Mass Effect, Crysis Warhead)? I'm fairly certain Cliffy knows this information, but he has ignored it and instead delivered a verbal slap to the core of his PC customer base.

I emailed a buddy of mine earlier today about this story. One of the things he mentioned was that GoW requires a Windows Live account in order to save single-player campaign progress. I passed on GoW because it just didn't get my interest, but had I known about this it would have been an instant no-buy. There is simply no technical reason whatsoever to limit a save feature like this. Such a choice serves only to force GfWL down gamers' throats.

Whether or not devs and publishers ever admit it, there are a myriad of reasons why highend games suffer lower sales, and simply fingering piracy all the time just isn't honest. Like every other media industry, game companies have to cope with significant changes to their business model. Some (Trent Reznor, Valve) do better than others (RIAA, EA).

I still don't understand why publishers haven't experimented with the shareware model again. Release the game data for free across the innertubes (with limited features), but include an easy-to-use online activation/purchase method to unlock the full game.

[The_cranky_hermit]

What bothers me about Mr. Cliffy's statement is its enormous implication: that high-end PC users are a mob rampaging pirates, and that they are the only reason that high-end games suffer.

This is pretty much just a glorified manner of putting words in his mouth. His words alone do not imply this - if this implication can be derived at all, then there must be some amount of truth to it.

For instance, I have yet to see Cevat Yerli even acknowledge that Crysis' system-crushing requirements could have played a part in lower sales

First of all, it's not so system crushing if you run on medium (which still makes it the best looking game ever IMO). Secondly, they did in fact acknowledge that they made a mistake by overemphasizing how good it looks maxed out, and that they should have made more of an effort to tell people that they can run it on medium and have it look really nice.

Perhaps Unreal Tournament 3 lost some sales because it is generally regarded as being inferior to UT2K4 (this is why I skipped UT3)?

It did bad on consoles too. AFAIK, nobody ever blamed UT3's failure on piracy.

Like every other media industry, game companies have to cope with significant changes to their business model.

No other media industry has ever had to cope with piracy on the scale that PC devs do.

I still don't understand why publishers haven't experimented with the shareware model again. Release the game data for free across the innertubes (with limited features), but include an easy-to-use online activation/purchase method to unlock the full game.

Personally, I wouldn't do such a thing for two reasons. One, it would make things more convenient than ever for the pirates. It's bad enough that they can acquire full versions of my game on their own networks - letting them do the same on my own (that only needs to be unlocked with an easily acquired keygen) isn't in my good interests. Two, it would mean long download times for everyone who even wants to sample the game, meaning they waste a whole lot of time downloading portions of the game that they won't ever play if they decide not to buy the game. It might be more feasible for low budget, low exposure, and low risk games with small filesizes, though.

[Mach1.9pants]

Yes, I agree with GA. My wording is wrong. He does not out and out say that 'high speccers' are pirates. But the implication is very strong. We are all adults and realise that implication is as good (or bad) as a statement in the real world*. It is just not as legally binding!

*The parts of the world that does not include lawyers and politicians ;)

[The_cranky_hermit]

But the implication is very strong. We are all adults and realise that implication is as good (or bad) as a statement in the real world*.

The implication isn't strong. It isn't even flimsy. That implication does not exist. At best he's implying that *enough* of high-end PC gamers are pirates to make a GoW2 port unprofitable. And the fact of the matter is that if all the people in this topic who claimed to not pirate were willing to buy GoW2, that wouldn't be nearly enough to make it profitable.

[Mach1.9pants]

Fair enough Cranky, you do not see an implication and do not feel insulted. I, and many others who have read his statement, do. To me he is implying that I am a pirate. Not really much more I can say.

[The_cranky_hermit]

You are making a grievous accusation about another person. If you can't justify this accusation beyond "well I feel insulted and so do many others" then the accusation isn't really called for.

[GeneralAdmission]

This is pretty much just a glorified manner of putting words in his mouth. His words alone do not imply this - if this implication can be derived at all, then there must be some amount of truth to it.

Hmmmm...perhaps this is something that we just see differently. When I used the word implication, I meant an indirect or implied meaning, whether intentional or not, irrespective of factual or non-factual basis. When I see that gamers on a number of forums/sites have taken Cliff's comments as a slam against highend users, I perceive that to be a response to an implied meaning. This is the same situation that results in politicians constantly issuing statements of clarification about a previous statement.

First of all, it's not so system crushing if you run on medium (which still makes it the best looking game ever IMO). Secondly, they did in fact acknowledge that they made a mistake by overemphasizing how good it looks maxed out, and that they should have made more of an effort to tell people that they can run it on medium and have it look really nice.

It did bad on consoles too. AFAIK, nobody ever blamed UT3's failure on piracy.

Perhaps the examples I posted were too detailed. The point of that paragraph was that Cliffy lays the blame for poor highend game sales at one cause: piracy. This is simply not true, and I was only highlighting other contributing factors.

Like every other media industry, game companies have to cope with significant changes to their business model.

No other media industry has ever had to cope with piracy on the scale that PC devs do.

The scale of piracy wasn't what I was addressing. Piracy is only one factor in the rapidly changing world of technology.

Personally, I wouldn't do such a thing for two reasons. One, it would make things more convenient than ever for the pirates. It's bad enough that they can acquire full versions of my game on their own networks - letting them do the same on my own (that only needs to be unlocked with an easily acquired keygen) isn't in my good interests. Two, it would mean long download times for everyone who even wants to sample the game, meaning they waste a whole lot of time downloading portions of the game that they won't ever play if they decide not to buy the game. It might be more feasible for low budget, low exposure, and low risk games with small filesizes, though.

Again I think I was too specific. My point was that companies need to come up with creative solutions to deal with the factors challenging old business models.

[Frag Maniac]

If they are perfectly happy to spend $200-$300 on a video card that serves no purpose but to play games, then the games themselves are clearly within their budget.

By that analogy anyone that owns a $300 TV can automatically afford $50 a month on cable. Not to mention that "perfectly happy" is quite often struggle to afford instead. The gaming industry is not unlike TV and cell phone services. It's not the hardware they make a killing on, it's the media.

I'm not saying piracy on the PC platform hasn't become a problem, but I think it's clear that many whom used to be insistent on buying every PC title are now fed up with crappy ports, unfixed bugs, and poorly optimized resource hogs of games. They're not finding the price asked for them justifiable anymore, esp when there's no demo to try before you buy.

Epic blunder in their press statements as much if not more so than CryTek are. But hey, it's an election year here in the US, so BS seems to be the norm lately. In fact, I'm beginning to think Epic should call their lead designer whiner Cliffy BS. The PC devs that don't whine about such things to the incredible exaggerated level Cliffy has are actually hard at work MAKING good games, rather than taking a quick profit on a crappy port and leaving it riddled with bugs.

[Paddy the Wak]

... I challenge you to prove his comments wrong by telling me that you know about gaming PC parts and yet do not know about torrenting.

Knowing about torrenting and knowing how to torrent are two different things ...

I have a pretty high level of gaming pc knowledge and yet I honestly have no clue how to torrent.

:shock:

[DaFox]

[quote]... I challenge you to prove his comments wrong by telling me that you know about gaming PC parts and yet do not know about torrenting.

Knowing about torrenting and knowing how to torrent are two different things ...

I have a pretty high level of gaming pc knowledge and yet have no clue how to torrent.

:shock:

The reason torrenting is such a popular medium for content is the fact that its so easy.

1. download a torrent client
2. search for the file you want to download on a torrent site and open it with the torrent client

[Paddy the Wak]

I didn't want to know how to do it ... I am not a thief !
Oh crap ! ... that what I just said suggests that anyone that knows this info is a thief ... I've done the same thing as Cliffy .... :shock:

and now that I know (all be it reluctantly) I too must of course be a pirate ... (implied Cliffy and now myself above) ... :lol:
and Cliffy himself ... I would say is pretty clued up on the whole PC gaming thing and so surely he must know how to torrent (implied by Cranky) and so he too must also be a pirate (implied by himself and me above) ... :lol:




Just joking around of course ... no implication intended ... :P

[Mach1.9pants]

I didn't want to know how to do it ... I am not a thief !
Oh crap ! ... that what I just said suggests that anyone that knows this info is a thief ... I've done the same thing as Cliffy .... :shock:

and now that I know (all be it reluctantly) I too must of course be a pirate ... (implied Cliffy and now myself above) ... :lol:
and Cliffy himself ... I would say is pretty clued up on the whole PC gaming thing and so surely he must know how to torrent (implied by Cranky) and so he too must also be a pirate (implied by himself and me above) ... :lol:




Just joking around of course ... no implication intended ... :P

LOL I really laughed my tits off Paddy! Torrenting is OK, it is what you torrent that counts, you naughty boy :P

[VentZero]

just a thought

what makes ppl pirate games ? - lack of money
what do high end owner obviously need to have to get a high end rig? - money

cliffyb shoots in his own food ...

so my point is, who ever has enough money to buy a high end rig also has enough money to buy a game - and is therefor not pirating (some do some dont)

the majority of people who torrent games are not the highend gamer theyre the normal low or medium end pc owners who dont have much money to spend a lot on games, games which are today full of eye candy but lack of fun and innovations - its all yesterdays lunch warmed up (that'll fit not to anyone maybe but its my oppinion)


anyways, i buy good games when i feel they deserve it - like UT99 i got it on CD-R and then after i played it several times (and had the money) i went to a store and bought it, same goes with HL and HL² - these are games which deserve it to be bought AND they give you something for that