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MobsterOO7
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2010, 19:25 
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My knowledge of Linux goes like this:
"Does it play games?"
"Not really."
"Not interested."
This is quite the extent of a lot of people's experience with linux which is quite sad. Because linux is quite an impressive operating system if you aren't playing games.

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DaFox
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2010, 23:51 
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A note to people interested in the exploit and retaining OtherOS support, DO NOT UPDATE. When 3.21 comes out, I will look into a safe way of updating to retain OtherOS support, perhaps something like Hellcat's Recovery Flasher. I never intended to touch CFW, but if that's how you want to play...

Two things, some people seem to think CFW will enable some sort of piracy. It won't. It'll just be a custom version of 3.21 that doesn't lose OtherOS support. Hacking isn't about getting what you didn't pay for, it's about making sure you do get what you did.

And this is about more than this feature right now. It's about whether these companies have the right to take away advertised features from a product you purchased. Imagine if an exploit were found in Safari on the iPhone, but instead of fixing it, Apple decides to pull web browsing altogether. Legally, they may be within their right to do so, but we have to show them it's the wrong move for the future of the product and the company.
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whismerhill
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2010, 16:02 
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Regarding advertised features and the EULA, I'm sure it's stated in there that features may be added and removed.

this doesn't hold a candle in court should Sony be challenged for removing features ...
However this doesn't mean that they would lose, should it be challenged ...
that said I agree with the rest, no one will challenge this lost feature, which is sad because we shouldn't allow companies to advertise so wrongly about things...
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dopefish
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2010, 16:48 
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[quote]Regarding advertised features and the EULA, I'm sure it's stated in there that features may be added and removed.

this doesn't hold a candle in court should Sony be challenged for removing features ...
However this doesn't mean that they would lose, should it be challenged ...
that said I agree with the rest, no one will challenge this lost feature, which is sad because we shouldn't allow companies to advertise so wrongly about things...

It could easily hold a candle to it I think.

I'm not a lawyer by any means but things like this are in just about 100% of the EULAs you will find.

Look at cell phone services. You sign up for contract for a specific set of features yet that contract will still say they may change at any time. Sites you sign up for and other things with agreements generally all say that things can and probably will change with or without notice.

If things like this wouldn't hold up in court then you'd be reading about this stuff all the time.

The point is that it's an agreement. If the agreement says that features may be added or removed in future updates, you still agree(d) to it.

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Dem Pyros
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2010, 19:38 
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It could easily hold a candle to it I think.

I'm not a lawyer by any means but things like this are in just about 100% of the EULAs you will find.

Look at cell phone services. You sign up for contract for a specific set of features yet that contract will still say they may change at any time. Sites you sign up for and other things with agreements generally all say that things can and probably will change with or without notice.

If things like this wouldn't hold up in court then you'd be reading about this stuff all the time.

The point is that it's an agreement. If the agreement says that features may be added or removed in future updates, you still agree(d) to it.

An EULA is different than a legal contract.

The reason the EULA will hold up in court is that you're still allowed to use the PS3 and Linux and all of that...the EULA just tells you that if you want to do that, you can't use their service. You can still play games, watch movies, etc. etc. You just can't watch any NEW movies that need the updated Blu-Ray specs or play any NEW games which need new PS3 firmware. As for the PSN, it's their network and it's their EULA. They have a right to deny you access if you don't play by their rules. End of story.

As for being an advertised feature that was removed...I don't know what impact that has legally (if any).
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StingingVelvet
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 00:44 
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Choosing not to update would make many games unplayable in the future though, and previous online games unable to connect. I would say that seriously impacts the machine even in day one condition, for instance with release day game Resistance Fall of Man. You cannot play that game online and have Linux, despite both being advertised as included since launch.

I would assume they would lose the case as the machine is not bricked, but it's still interesting legalese.

I would really like to see a challenge over Steamworks games being sold in retail and then only working if you attach them to a digital delivery service.
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whismerhill
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 06:28 
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it's not because it's in the majority of EULAs that it has any legal weight ...
you can't do everything just because an EULA tells you, you can ...

if something major was removed for example, despite the EULA allowing the company to do just that, a user could ask for a refund & win in court ...
it all depends on the specifics of the case that would be at hand ...
Is the fact that the user expected that feature available forever reasonable ?
Is the fact that the company removed said feature reasonable ?
Are the demands reasonable ?
etcetera ...

For example, an obvious losing case would be removing the ability to use games ...
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Dem Pyros
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 06:44 
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Choosing not to update would make many games unplayable in the future though, and previous online games unable to connect.
True, but that's not a fault of Sony (legally). They're providing a service (PSN), and in order to use that service you have to agree to their EULA and terms of use.

For example, an obvious losing case would be removing the ability to use games ...
The problem with newer games is that it's foolish to have a console that can easily be updated by an internet connection limited to the firmware from the initial release. I would doubt that games that required updates from the newer firmware versions (Trophies, etc.) wouldn't say what minimum firmware version they required on the box. That would probably save Sony from any liability.
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StingingVelvet
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 10:53 
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True, but that's not a fault of Sony (legally). They're providing a service (PSN), and in order to use that service you have to agree to their EULA and terms of use.


True... perhaps the issue should be advertising services as part of a hardware purchase?

I don't think laws will ever change on what these companies can do in these areas, I think laws might change on how they can present or advertise the transaction. For instance, Steam or similar services might one day have to present the game as a service contract, like "click here to subscribe" rather than "click to buy."
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Dem Pyros
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2010, 21:30 
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True... perhaps the issue should be advertising services as part of a hardware purchase?

I think that when you buy a Playstation, the fine print on the box says something to the effect of "In order to use PSN you must have a Playstation Network account and an active broadband internet subscription."

The former probably is what would save their asses in court.

As per the advertising language changing in the future to accommodate to these sort of problems....I'm not so sure. Steam for example isn't really so much a subscription service as it is a distribution platform. Once you have the game, in theory you can leave Steam offline and never log in again. It's only when you abuse the service that they will cut you off (though I don't know too much about Steam network bans, so I don't know what all of that entails...)
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