Widescreen Gaming Forum

I'm slowly looking into a system upgrade. And when I say upgrade, it usually means a whole new build with only a few components transferred from the old one.

The 'slowly' should be taken pretty literally. My current system is still doing its job fine. It's just that I can't max out details/fps anymore in newer games. And faster photo editing would also be very nice of course.
At the very least I'll be waiting for Windows 7 release. I want it, which is another reason for the upgrade in itself. I want the retail version straight away. I do not want Vista + upgrade, nor do I want an RC version. Therefore it will be the end of October at least. But likely it'll be even a bit later before I actually do things. Let's keep it at late 2009 / early 2010 for now.

As usual for me when buying things, I'm willing and able to pay for quality. Price is secondary, unless it gets really ridiculous, like the price premium for an i7 975 EE over a 950.

I will not overclock.


I'm considering to buy my items through Alternate, because they're one of few proper shops, which actually have lots of choice, albeit quite a drive to get there. Mentioned prices are theirs. Here goes:

- Intel Core i7 950 - €469
The 920 is only 2.67GHz, and I fear I may not notice too much difference from my current E6600 (2x 2.4 GHz) when processing photos. Hence the 3GHz edition. i7 975 is too expensive, as explained above.

- Corsair 6Gb DDR3 - €119
I just picked a brand, better options welcome.

- Sapphire Radeon HD 5870 1GB - €369
I definately want a 5870. And I liked the previous Sapphire card I had, hence this one. If a 2GB non-6xDP 5870 is released, I want that one.

- 2x Intel 80GB SSD X25-M G2 - €199 each
Wow, last week they were still going at €209 or more. And the 160GB version was even more expensive relatively. Now it might be more interesting to get a single 160GB disk at €399. Anyway, 160GB worth of SSDs. Intel promised a firmware update with trimming, but they're awaiting the Windows 7 release. And so am I. Will be keeping an eye on developments here - G3 might be released shortly after Win7.
To complement these I'll be transferring my current 300GB disk for the larger data storage (pictures mainly).

- Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro - €0
No, don't get that one, way too expensive! Yes, except that it's already in my current build and will be transferred to the new one when I get it.

- DVD drive - €0
I think I'll just rip my current Samsung from its current location. It's not like there are any significant advantages so far. Except bluray I suppose, but I can live without that for the time being.



What I'd like advice on is:

- Motherboard. Needs to fit all the random bits I've picked. Must have Firewire (preferably 800, but I don't think that's available at all), lots of USB ports, like 10 or more total, and integrated network.
- Case. Although I really like my current one, it's already served two inner workings, and some parts aren't exactly as new anymore, or obsolete. Time to move on.
- Power Supply. - I have a Zalman 600W currently, perhaps it'll be sufficient?
- Cooling system. Quiet and cool would be rather nice. Water cooling is expensive and a bit scary. So I'd still prefer air, unless you have a very good water cooling solution.

And things I may have forgotten. Input devices of course don't have to be replaced, they're pretty new still.

Last time I had to get my stuff in a hurry, building from in-stock components at a nearby shop. This time I intend to be prepared. So break loose, and help me find the parts to finish this thing. Or tell me the error of my ways.

Thanks for reading :)

If price isn't an issue and you have no intention of overclocking (although with the Core i7 920, I don't see why you wouldn't - half the price of the 950 for same/more performance for a few hours of tweaking?) but I won't get into that debate. ;) I'll just recommend some of the question spots.

Motherboard: You'll be lucky to find a mobo with 1394b. Gigabyte used to have it on their boards, not sure if they still do. I've got a Gigabyte EX58-UD5 for my i7 rig, nice board, I like it a lot. It POSTs a little slowly, but newer BIOSes are supposed to have fixed that. I'm just too lazy to flash the thing. The EX58-UD3R and UD4P are also well thought of.

Case: Big or small? Antec P183/P193 if you want something nice and quiet. Silverstone TJ07 if you want something bigger. Or the Coolermaster ACTS840.

PSU: That one'll probably do, but something like the Corsair HX620/850 might not be a bad idea.

Cooler: Prolimatech Megahalem. TRUE performance without TRUE faffing around lapping the thing. And a couple of decent fans in push/pull on it.

There are lots of MBs in both 1366 and 1156 that have 1394, just not 1394b. My guess is it's due to Apple reaming them on licensing fees for the twice as fast 1394b.

If the rig is primarily for gaming and you insist on not OCing, you may want to consider going 1156, for a few reasons. The i7 870 is priced the same as the 950 and in games edges it out slightly due to a higher Turbo Boost. It also has a lot lower power consumption and the 1156 MBs are more affordable too, esp if you go Crossfire only support instead of the ones that support SLI.

Don't get me wrong, the 950 is a beautiful chip and actually performs better in many synthetic benches where it's more advanced (eg: QPI) architecture is used more thoroughly, but honestly if you're buying it just for gaming and only using stock speeds the 870 would be better.

Case wise there are some trickling into the market now that have SSD mounts, my fave being the Thermaltake Element S. It's affordably priced, has great airflow and stock fans, and is very quiet.

So, to summarize, I'd consider an i7 870 on something like an ASUS P7P55D Crossfire ready P55 MB for only $150.

Keep the Zalman 600, it should be enough for 1156, as the 800 series CPUs and ATI's 5870 are both pretty power efficient.

Take a look at the Thermaltake Element S case, very good case for the price.

On the cooler I'd agree with PS, though I'm not sure either have an 1156 bracket yet, but I know one of them already has a tab for 1156 greyed out on their site, so will have one soon.

The only reason you'd even want a cooler for a stock speed 870 is it's HS isn't as robust as those on the 900 series and can't even handle it's own Turbo Boost mode very well. Honestly if you go with a stock 950 though, an aftermarket cooler would kinda be overkill.

Thanks for that :)
Let's review that then...

Processor:

f the rig is primarily for gaming and you insist on not OCing, you may want to consider going 1156, for a few reasons. The i7 870 is priced the same as the 950 and in games edges it out slightly due to a higher Turbo Boost. It also has a lot lower power consumption and the 1156 MBs are more affordable too, esp if you go Crossfire only support instead of the ones that support SLI.

Don't get me wrong, the 950 is a beautiful chip and actually performs better in many synthetic benches where it's more advanced (eg: QPI) architecture is used more thoroughly, but honestly if you're buying it just for gaming and only using stock speeds the 870 would be better.

It will not be primarily for gaming. If it was just that, I'd probably be better off getting a HD5870 and replace my current card. And maybe an SSD. Cheapest option, and probably effective too. I've actually considered it. However, there's photography in there also, which I'd like to speed up. And that's where raw processing power comes in. By the way, the 950 goes at €469, while the 870 is €499. So the 870 is in fact slightly more expensive, while running at a lower clock speed. How much will the two processors differ for photo/video editing?
950 stock cooler, well, I could agree. I've always plugged in a Zalman so far with my current builds, since they're not all that expensive compared to the rest of the rig. But I can see how it's overkill when not OCing. Big question though: is it a bit quiet? Not that my current cooler has much of that mind you...

As for overclocking, I've never done it before and I just think it's scary to do tbh. Then again, once running I suppose I'd be just fine. Preferably not though.

Firewire:
As I mentioned already, I doubt any of these boards will be available at all. So the a-version will do.

Case:
The Thermaltake Element S looks very interesting indeed. Goes at €129 at Alternate (windowed version, the other's €119). Only the appearance would need some getting used to I think, but practicality seems very good. Especially the SSD slots. I currently have a whole 1 5,25" slot in use, so I don't think 3 will be too few. Big fans = little noise, yay :D

Cooler:
Unfortunately, the Prolimatech Megahalem seems unavailable at Alternate. This is the full list of what they have: Click
Any of those worth it, or shall I just stick to stock cooling?

MoBo:
The gigabyte EX58-UD5 (€229) looks quite interesting, but also seems like overkill. I have no need for 3x PCIe 16x, one will do. Also, two network inputs? Well, I suppose I could find some kind of use for that eventually, but one would do as well. Then I looked at the slightly cheaper EX58-UD3R (€169), only to find that it has only 4 DDR slots, thus probably doesn't do triple channel properly. Or does it? Oh, there it is, DDR3 - 1333 max, while I already chose DDR3 - 1600 up there :roll:
Seems the UD5 only does one DIMM per channel only at that speed: Compatibility list. So there won't be any upgrading.
I think it'll be safe to assume the chosen memory will work, right?


PSU:
Hmmm... tricky one. So you think 600W will pull all this? Because it would sure save some money. But how wise is it to get a whole new system and run it on an older PSU?
Anyway, the Corsair CMPSU-850HX would run me €145, but ouch, does it have a lot of connectors! But I suppose you need 6 of the PCIe connectors if you're ever going into 3 video cards ;). Something I don't see myself doing by the way. Efficiency seems pretty high - and that's good. I prefer having a bit of leftover power on the PSU side. Better safe than sorry.

This calculator recommends 504W, based on a 4870X2. The 5870 requires less juice, correct? So 600W should be pretty sufficient. Hmmm... might stick with what I have after all... ahh, toughest choice of all I think :lol:
I think that for now I'll stick with all new components, with plenty of leftover power, thus the Corsair 850W. Just in case I decide to overclock after all one day, or expand with extra GPUs, or something like that ;)


Right then, the current status for my system build:

New:
- Thermaltake Element S - €129
- Corsair 850HX - €145
- Gigabyte EX58-UD5 - €229
- Intel Core i7 950 / stock cooling - €469
- Corsair 6Gb DDR3-1600 Tri-kit - €119
- Sapphire Radeon HD 5870 1GB - €369
- Intel SSD(s) X25-M G2, 160GB total - ~€400
- Windows 7. Haven't fully decided on the version yet. OEM will probably run me about €100-150.

From current build:
- Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro
- DVD drive
- 300GB SATA harddisk. I think it's a Maxtor.
- Logitech G9 mouse, G15 keyboard, joystick, gamepad, printer, scanner, monitors etc. etc.
_________________________________________
- Total price: ~€2000


Ouch. But I'll be hoping it's going to last for more years than my last builds. In fact, my current one's outliving its predecessor. And tech is moving up pretty slowly these days. I'm expecting it to last at least 3-4 years. And by then I'll have my own house probably, i.e. no money for big upgrades, so it'd better last!
Also, I'm expecting price drops before I actually build the thing - especially on the SSDs. So it might not turn out as bad as it seems :)

Anything I forgot? Any terrible mistakes I'm still making?


Sorry for the long read :oops:

It will not be primarily for gaming. If it was just that, I'd probably be better off getting a HD5870 and replace my current card. And maybe an SSD. Cheapest option, and probably effective too. I've actually considered it. However, there's photography in there also, which I'd like to speed up. And that's where raw processing power comes in. By the way, the 950 goes at €469, while the 870 is €499. So the 870 is in fact slightly more expensive, while running at a lower clock speed. How much will the two processors differ for photo/video editing?
950 stock cooler, well, I could agree. I've always plugged in a Zalman so far with my current builds, since they're not all that expensive compared to the rest of the rig. But I can see how it's overkill when not OCing. Big question though: is it a bit quiet? Not that my current cooler has much of that mind you...

I view Core i5 as a bit of a potential dead-end for expandability, to be honest. It's limited to 16 PCI-E lanes, as the controller is on the CPU. Further, I don't think Intel have made clear their opinion of releasing hexa-core CPUs on LGA1156. They have made it clear that LGA1366 will have hexa-core CPUs in the future. For photo/video editing that leaves the potential upgrade path without a whole platform shift. To be honest, there likely won't be much in the differences between the two CPUs for photo/video work.

As for overclocking, I've never done it before and I just think it's scary to do tbh. Then again, once running I suppose I'd be just fine. Preferably not though.

It's not scary. And if you went with the Core i7 920 (D0 stepping) then you can essentially get a Core i7 965 or 975 for a quarter of the cost by simply bumping the Base Clock of the board up. Or even further. Both myself and eZ` now have 920's at upwards of 3.6GHz.

Firewire:
As I mentioned already, I doubt any of these boards will be available at all. So the a-version will do.

If you want 1394b, you'll need to get an expansion card, I think. A PCI-E card won't give you the nasty bandwidth bottlenecks that the PCI cards will, but will cost more money... £75...

Case:
The Thermaltake Element S looks very interesting indeed. Goes at €129 at Alternate (windowed version, the other's €119). Only the appearance would need some getting used to I think, but practicality seems very good. Especially the SSD slots. I currently have a whole 1 5,25" slot in use, so I don't think 3 will be too few. Big fans = little noise, yay :D

Personally I think the Element S looks terrible, but to each their own. It's not that hard to get a 2.5" to 3.5" adaptor. ;)

Cooler:
Unfortunately, the Prolimatech Megahalem seems unavailable at Alternate. This is the full list of what they have: Click
Any of those worth it, or shall I just stick to stock cooling?

Whatever you do, don't stick to stock cooling. See if somewhere else can get you a Megahalem, possible, or go with one of these... Noctua or TRUE120. The TRUE will need lapping (a few hours of work with sandpaper) to get the best out of it. If you don't fancy that (it's a lot more work than overclocking, even!) then the Noctua is a good alternative. It's quiet, too.

MoBo:
The gigabyte EX58-UD5 (€229) looks quite interesting, but also seems like overkill. I have no need for 3x PCIe 16x, one will do. Also, two network inputs? Well, I suppose I could find some kind of use for that eventually, but one would do as well. Then I looked at the slightly cheaper EX58-UD3R (€169), only to find that it has only 4 DDR slots, thus probably doesn't do triple channel properly. Or does it? Oh, there it is, DDR3 - 1333 max, while I already chose DDR3 - 1600 up there :roll:
Seems the UD5 only does one DIMM per channel only at that speed: Compatibility list. So there won't be any upgrading.
I think it'll be safe to assume the chosen memory will work, right?

All Core i5/i7 boards only "officially" support 1333MHz RAM. In practice, you set the BIOS right, you can get pretty much any speed of RAM you want working. Most modern boards have dual LANs... it's a 'feature' that one manufacturer decides is a good idea, so all the others need to jump on the same bandwagon to stop them from being able to laud about "the only dual LAN motherboard!"... it's all a marketing exercise in the end. If you want a cheap board, the Foxconn Flaming Blade GTI is cheap. It's considered to be a bit of an overclockers board, but you don't have to overclock. Just a word of warning on that, though; the Foxconn BlackOps I picked up to play with has to be the second most picky mobo I've ever used. And Foxconn have basically stopped supporting it, even though it's not that old. I don't think it'll take 'em long to stop support for their other boards either. Most of the X58 boards have triple 16x PCI-E slots. Since I've got experience of the UD5 (and it's exactly the same board as the EX58 Extreme, but without the insane heatpipe array) I'd still recommend that one. If you go the EX58-UD5 route, unlike the cheaper Foxconn, you can go the 12GB route later if you do any photo editing that chews RAM for breakfast. ;)

PSU:
Hmmm... tricky one. So you think 600W will pull all this? Because it would sure save some money. But how wise is it to get a whole new system and run it on an older PSU?
Anyway, the Corsair CMPSU-850HX would run me €145, but ouch, does it have a lot of connectors! But I suppose you need 6 of the PCIe connectors if you're ever going into 3 video cards ;). Something I don't see myself doing by the way. Efficiency seems pretty high - and that's good. I prefer having a bit of leftover power on the PSU side. Better safe than sorry.

I'm running a Core i7 920 @ 3.8GHz with 4 HDDs, 2 opticals and a 4870X2 (power hog) on a Corsair HX620 with no issues. The 600w Zalman will probably manage it.

This calculator recommends 504W, based on a 4870X2. The 5870 requires less juice, correct? So 600W should be pretty sufficient. Hmmm... might stick with what I have after all... ahh, toughest choice of all I think :lol:
I think that for now I'll stick with all new components, with plenty of leftover power, thus the Corsair 850W. Just in case I decide to overclock after all one day, or expand with extra GPUs, or something like that ;)

The 5870 needs 188w at full load. ~28w idle. The 4870X2 needs something insane like 250w at full load.

Right then, the current status for my system build:

New:
- Thermaltake Element S - €129
- Corsair 850HX - €145
- Gigabyte EX58-UD5 - €229
- Intel Core i7 950 / stock cooling - €469
- Corsair 6Gb DDR3-1600 Tri-kit - €119
- Sapphire Radeon HD 5870 1GB - €369
- Intel SSD(s) X25-M G2, 160GB total - ~€400
- Windows 7. Haven't fully decided on the version yet. OEM will probably run me about €100-150.

From current build:
- Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro
- DVD drive
- 300GB SATA harddisk. I think it's a Maxtor.
- Logitech G9 mouse, G15 keyboard, joystick, gamepad, printer, scanner, monitors etc. etc.
_________________________________________
- Total price: ~€2000


Ouch. But I'll be hoping it's going to last for more years than my last builds. In fact, my current one's outliving its predecessor. And tech is moving up pretty slowly these days. I'm expecting it to last at least 3-4 years. And by then I'll have my own house probably, i.e. no money for big upgrades, so it'd better last!
Also, I'm expecting price drops before I actually build the thing - especially on the SSDs. So it might not turn out as bad as it seems :)

Anything I forgot? Any terrible mistakes I'm still making?


Sorry for the long read :oops:

I can't see any glaring errors. Can you pre-order Windows 7 now, it'll make it cheaper (Win 7 Home Premium is currently £65 here if you order now...)

I'd seriously opt for an aftermarket cooler and go the Core i7 920 route with a little overclocking, but I can understand why you might not want to.

I've been bitten by the overclocking bug - even a little extra performance for 'free' is worth a couple of hours tweaking in my opinion. ;) 8)

Well if most of what you're doing is photo editing, the 950 IS faster at that. Although with video editing it's a mixed bag. They're almost dead even on x264 encoding, with the 950 barely leading. In WMV editing though, the 870 takes the lead, so it depends on how you encode your videos. Also, the 870 just came out and you said you won't buy for a while yet. By the time you buy, the 870 may be as cheap if not cheaper than the 950.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/17545/1

Concerning PS' comments on 1156 vs 1366, I was not speaking of the i5 at all, only the 870. The i5 is a slower chip and doesn't even have HyperThreading, which makes it MUCH slower in uses that involve heavy threading, such as media work or any multitasking. Also, being restricted to 16 Pci-Ex lanes is really not going to affect the uses you mentioned. That is more of a concern if you were primarily gaming and planning to Crossfire. Even there though, there's no single GPU card made yet that requires or uses more than 8x bandwidth.

PS' most valid point on 1156 vs 1366 is upgradability. The 1366 platform will indeed fit an i9 Hex core CPU. However there are some questions regarding an i9 on the currently available 1366 MBs. Will you really still be happy with an X58 MB by the time you upgrade to i9, or will there be much better chipsets available dedicated to i9 by then? If you still aren't OCing by then, will you be happy with the i9's slower stock speed (1st one talked about is only 2.4GHz), and how well will it really compare to a faster speed chip even though it has two more cores? What will the i9s be priced at?

These are all things that are up in the air when counting on staying on an X58 MB for future upgrades, whereas with 1156 you know you can already get a very good board for only $150 (even less probably by October) and that for the most part the 870 will hang with a 950.

As for the cooler, if you go with a stock speed 950, it would only be to reduce noise a bit, so I'd go affordable. Of those listed on Alternate, the Coolermaster 212 is very affordable and made FrostyTech's top ten list at #7. Just keep it on low speed though unless you don't mind some noise while doing your CPU instense stuff. On high it's in the 50s db wise, on low in the 30s. The main thing is not going overkill if it's just for noise reduction.

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2419

On the TT Element S, the only thing I would point out is if you plan to put it on a desk or even a hard floor, you may want to get some silicone rubber feet to replace the plastic ones it comes with, which can be had cheap. It also has knock out expansion slot covers vs replaceable ones. So if you put in a card then move it to another slot you'll have an open expansion slot hole unless you have some spare screw in covers lying around or buy a set, which again, can be had cheap.

On the MB, if you go 1366, a Giga EX58-UD3R or ASUS P6T (both very good boards) would suffice really, esp since the rig is to be more media than gaming based. You really don't need a ton of Pci-Ex slots and lanes. Of the two, the ASUS has better spacing between the RAM DIMMs and the CPU, which is important if you go with an extremely fat fin stack cooler like the Prolimatech Megahalems, but honestly, it's overkill for just reducing noise on a stock speed 950.

One consideration you need to be aware of is if you'll have the type of slot your sound card needs in a spot you have room for it, esp if Crossfire on down the road is at all a possibility, but that of course would also mean picking a Crossfire ready MB. Of these two, I lean toward the Giga because it has a very high default memory standard of 2000MHz, requiring no OC. You'd have to OC the ASUS a bit just to put 1600 RAM on it. However if Crossfiring, after two dual slot GPUs are installed the ASUS has an open PCI slot for sound whereas the Giga has an open Pci-Ex slot, and since you didn't say your X-Fi was a Pci-Ex (Ti) version, the ASUS may be better if Crossfiring.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010200280&srchInDesc=X58&bop=And&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&ActiveSearchResult=False&CompareItemList=N82E16813131386%2CN82E16813128375

Good grief, that Noctua cooler weighs almost a whole kilogram! Can modern day MoBo's hold that kind of weight?


This overclocking thing, how much does it really involve? Just setting some sliders in the BIOS? Any common problems?
Could a 950 also be overclocked to even higher ratings, or is that wishful thinking (as in: Intel already clocked it higher)?

I already considered the future upgradeability by picking a 1366 chipset. In reality however I always find myself buying a whole new system despite this. Maybe I'll be different in the future eh, who knows. Best be prepared.

If you want 1394b, you'll need to get an expansion card, I think. A PCI-E card won't give you the nasty bandwidth bottlenecks that the PCI cards will, but will cost more money... £75...

It's not quite worth that much to me. Just would've been nice to have, since my only firewire peripheral supports it.

Personally I think the Element S looks terrible, but to each their own.

Pretty much what I was subtly saying with the 'getting used to' remark :roll:. I don't find it very good to look at either, but it seems so awfully practical. Are those on/off/reset/etc. buttons there on top-front? Great place for them to be imho. My current Thermaltake case also warrants brand-loyalty, it's simply very good.
Hold on, are those harddisk bays rotated wrong again? I can put them in from the side in my current case, and it's just great like that. Much less fiddling with limited space. But I could live with that.
And after looking at it for a while, the appearance is not as bad as the first impression I think.

I'm running a Core i7 920 @ 3.8GHz with 4 HDDs, 2 opticals and a 4870X2 (power hog) on a Corsair HX620 with no issues. The 600w Zalman will probably manage it.

Aye, I've no doubt it will manage actually. Only issue is that since everything's going to be new (mostly), I'd want the PSU to be new as well. Plus that would leave me with an actually usable old pc, which I can pass on to relatives or keep as a WinXP build, or something along those lines. If I can find me an old cd-rom drive that is, or buy that new as well :roll:

As for the cooler, if you go with a stock speed 950, it would only be to reduce noise a bit, so I'd go affordable. Of those listed on ALternate, the Coolermaster 212 is very affordable and made FrostyTech's top ten list at #7. Just keep it on low speed though unless you don't mind some noise while doing your CPU instense stuff. On high it's in the 50s db wise, on low in the 30s. The main thing is not going overkill if it's just for noise reduction.

50dB seems like quite a bit compared to the 20 from the Noctua. I would really like something quiet for a change, not something that goes full blow 3 seconds after I push the switch. Yep, that's what my current one's doing right now, just for Opera. Maybe I got a setting wrong, but I can't quite find it :?. Very quiet would be really nice. Preferably I'd hear nothing, but I suppose that's not something I'll achieve.

On the TT Element S, the only thing I would point out is if you plan to put it on a desk or even a hard floor, you may want to get some silicone rubber feet to replace the plastic ones it comes with, which can be had cheap. It also has knock out expansion slot covers vs replaceable ones. So if you put in a card then move it to another slot you'll have an open expansion slot hole unless you have some spare screw in covers lying around or buy a set, which again, can be had cheap.

I think I've saved up some of those during my builds ;). Bit of a drawback still though.

And overclocking just to reach stock speeds? Don't think I'm up for that.

By the way, my intent is to use it for both serious gaming and photography. Video is not actually on my list, it would just be a nice extra to have a capable pc.

Good grief, that Noctua cooler weighs almost a whole kilogram! Can modern day MoBo's hold that kind of weight?

Oh yes, modern motherboards can take that. Well, actually, heatsinks that heavy have special retention mechanisms that help distribute the weight better. Inifinitely superior to the crappy Intel push-pins, too.

This overclocking thing, how much does it really involve? Just setting some sliders in the BIOS? Any common problems?
Could a 950 also be overclocked to even higher ratings, or is that wishful thinking (as in: Intel already clocked it higher)?

The 950 could probably be taken to 4GHz or over on air with a decent cooler, in much the same way as a 920 can. However, I'd err on the conservative side for a first overclock, particularly when you need it 100% stable (even running stock doesn't guarantee 100% stable nowadays, unfortunately...) How much effort it takes depends on the hardware you use (all X58 setups are 'easy' to OC, relatively speaking) and how far you want to push it. I'd take a Core i7 920 to 3.6GHz or so because that'd mean better performance than a €1000 chip, for a quarter the cost, without making it too difficult to do. To be honest, 3.6GHz on an i7 920 barely takes more effort than changing a couple of settings in the BIOS. Both the Core i7 920 and the 950 would probably top out around the same with air cooling. The 950 might go a bit further with watercooling, but half the fun of overclocking is getting high-cost performance out of lower-cost parts. :) On paper overclocking reduces the life of the CPU, but unless you're running it far too hot (90*C+) or planning on keeping the system for the next 15 years, it's not really a concern.

I already considered the future upgradeability by picking a 1366 chipset. In reality however I always find myself buying a whole new system despite this. Maybe I'll be different in the future eh, who knows. Best be prepared.

I'm the same way. But usually, it's because some sort of socket/platform shift occurs before I want to upgrade. Like the DDR to DDR2 shift, or DDR2 to DDR3 shift, or LGA775 to LGA1366, etc etc... these companies don't want a single platform to be upgradable for too long, or they won't make as much money!

It's not quite worth that much to me. Just would've been nice to have, since my only firewire peripheral supports it.

Ah, fair enough. I was just pointing out that if it became essential, it was available as a standalone option. :)

Pretty much what I was subtly saying with the 'getting used to' remark :roll:. I don't find it very good to look at either, but it seems so awfully practical. Are those on/off/reset/etc. buttons there on top-front? Great place for them to be imho. My current Thermaltake case also warrants brand-loyalty, it's simply very good.
Hold on, are those harddisk bays rotated wrong again? I can put them in from the side in my current case, and it's just great like that. Much less fiddling with limited space. But I could live with that.
And after looking at it for a while, the appearance is not as bad as the first impression I think.

Fair enough. I liked my Thermaltake Xaser case at the time, but don't like most of their current cases. I've mostly gone for externally fairly plain (or at least uniform) cases in recent years. Despite this, my 'perfect case' hunt continues... ;) :lol:

Aye, I've no doubt it will manage actually. Only issue is that since everything's going to be new (mostly), I'd want the PSU to be new as well. Plus that would leave me with an actually usable old pc, which I can pass on to relatives or keep as a WinXP build, or something along those lines. If I can find me an old cd-rom drive that is, or buy that new as well :roll:

Well, you could always get a cheaper PSU to put into the other system, but getting something like the Corsair HX620 and using that in this build might not go amiss. ;)

50dB seems like quite a bit compared to the 20 from the Noctua. I would really like something quiet for a change, not something that goes full blow 3 seconds after I push the switch. Yep, that's what my current one's doing right now, just for Opera. Maybe I got a setting wrong, but I can't quite find it :?. Very quiet would be really nice. Preferably I'd hear nothing, but I suppose that's not something I'll achieve.

Noctua fans are very good. They're damned expensive, though - a single 120mm Noctua fan costs £18 here!

I think I've saved up some of those during my builds ;). Bit of a drawback still though.

I discovered this with a cheap case I just bought to stuff a mates' system inside. The HDD cage vibrates as the HDD seeks/writes/reads... makes the drives really loud. :(

And overclocking just to reach stock speeds? Don't think I'm up for that.

A lot of RAM is like that. Personally, I view it like this: get the 1600MHz RAM, and run it below rated settings, but it allows you to increase the BCLK on the motherboard for overclocking without worrying about the RAM going over-spec and crapping out. Plus, here, 1600MHz RAM is about £5 more expensive than 1333MHz RAM. I like the option of extra speed if needed.

By the way, my intent is to use it for both serious gaming and photography. Video is not actually on my list, it would just be a nice extra to have a capable pc.

In that case, I'm pondering whether recommending you get 12GB of RAM right off the bat. Depends how many photos you want to edit simultaneously, of course. ;)

Overclocking with 12GB (six sticks) of RAM is a bit more challenging, though, as the memory controller on the CPU is under a bit more strain.

Don't know, I don't usually edit more than one or two pictures simultaneously. Haven't run into any noticable memory problems with my current 2GB. 12GB does sound nice though, and the memory prices aren't skyhigh atm. But would it be overkill I wonder? Also, from what I can see, I'd be limited to 1333 MHz - higher numbers require the use of both DIMM slot speeds or something like that.
Still, something to consider...

Noctua fans are very good. They're damned expensive, though - a single 120mm Noctua fan costs £18 here!

On a €2K total price tag, I'm not really worried whether a single part costs €40 or €60 to be honest. And if it's really that good, well I guess it'll go on the list :)

on PSUs, either way you look at it, you don't need 850W
calculators are based on max which in reality is never ever achieved!

I second the fact that noctua fans are very good, what's best is that there's specific noctua fans for every computer need out there (or nearly)

however dB values are to be taken with a grain of salt ...

Don't know, I don't usually edit more than one or two pictures simultaneously. Haven't run into any noticable memory problems with my current 2GB. 12GB does sound nice though, and the memory prices aren't skyhigh atm. But would it be overkill I wonder? Also, from what I can see, I'd be limited to 1333 MHz - higher numbers require the use of both DIMM slot speeds or something like that.
Still, something to consider...

you probably don't need that much memory for editing 1 or 2 images at a time ...
plus if you needed more memory, you would know by the increased compute time caused by HDD access

if you want to check out, edit two (or more) of your largest images doing the heaviest operations you're used to, on them & check out the task manager "Peak Commit Charge"
on Vista I don't think "Peak Commit Charge" is readily available so you might want to check out the damn fine piece of software "Process Explorer"
then inside it click "View", "System Information"

this will give you an approximate of what kind of memory amount you're using ...

Honestly, if you only want to run stock speeds, again, I'd go with an affordable cooler and run it on LOW like I said. The 50+ db spec I mentioned is on High speed, which is the noise range most good coolers run at on High. The Noctuas are pretty good, and very quiet, but to go to the expense of buying a whole Noctua HS/fan set is a bit pricey just for noise reduction.

You could go a lot quieter than the stock cooler with one of a number of affordable HSs and just run it on low. I'm also a bit skeptical that the Noctua fans cool all that well compared to others in their price range. I've read chat from a guy that bought a TRUE and put Noctua fans on it in push pull and it performed better with the one fan from his TT Big Typhon VX. In other words Noctua fans are quiet, but they need to be paired with a HS that doesn't have tightly spaced fins. CFM ratings and static pressure are two different things, and Noctua fans typically don't have much of the latter. So to get the most out of them, you'd want to buy their fan/HS set, which again, is expensive and overkill for just reducing noise on a stock speed CPU.

However, now that you're asking more about OCIng, that changes a lot. If you think you might want to OC at all, even just raising the clock speed without overvolting, get a good cooler that does more than just runs quieter. There I would say the Prolimatech Megahalems or TRUE would be best. The nice thing about the TRUE is it's not too massively huge , works well, and you can put any fan (with adequate static pressure) you want on it or buy it with fan included.

For your purposes and since you're apprehensive about OCing, I would pick a moderate range and just go as high as you can without overvolting to keep things simple. Besides, you haven't mentioned a desire to go Crossfire, and you really only need a high CPU OC if you go multi GPU. A speed of 3.4-3.6GHz is a no sweat range for a D0 stepped 920 and would handle dual Crossfire fine too, esp 3.6GHz. Theoretically a 950 would handle OCing even better because it's basically the same chip but passes thermal testing better. That's why they clock them higher and charge more for them. Hardly anyone planning to OC bothers paying double though, it's just not worth it. A 920 should handle a moderate OC for 3 yrs or more easy.

The fact that you said previously (and again just now) that you typically buy a whole new system instead of upgrading is one of the reasons I thought upgradability of 1366 over 1156 didn't mean much. Also, now that you mention gaming is your other primary use besides photo work, it's all the more reason to consider the more affordable, lower power consumption 1156 platform. Much of it hinges on whether you'll OC or not. However some of it hinges on price. Right now a 920 can be had for only $200, one of the best deals on the net. Just make sure it's a D0 stepped one if you go 920, it will say "S-Spec: SLBEJ" on the box if it's D0 stepping.

Yeah, the power/reset buttons are at the top on the Element S. There's another case out now that fits two SSD drives by NZXT called the M59. Personally though I don't think it looks any better than the Element S and doesn't have nearly as many stock fans and is probably louder. It's also described as being a bit flimsy in spots. At only $60 it's half the price though ($50 w/free shipping at Newegg right now). Overall it looks like a pretty good case for the money but has a few tradeoffs like a MB tray that is hard to get standoff screws started in (often a sign of too thin metal), very minimal cable storage depth behind the MB tray, and two top 140mm fan mounts that if both used internally interfere with the top optical drive bay.

The HDD cage on the Element S by default is mounted so the HDDs slide in sideways. The cage is secured with two thumbscrews and can as well be mounted with a front to back HDD configuration via sliding it out the front after removing the front bezel and rotating it 90 degrees. You get a bit more GPU clearance with it mounted sideways though. The front bezel comes off quite easily via a hand pulled latch at it's bottom. One thing you need to know is that both of these cases have bottom mountings for the PSU, which means your PSU needs to have fairly long cables or you need to use extensions if not.

http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=1679&pageID=7585

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146058&Tpk=NZXT%20M59

I would have a good feel how hot the air from the PSU is after you throw it togeather, im pretty sure you wont have problems, just best to air on the side of caution with all that money in it.

I would recommend Panaflo (NBM-MAT) fans, they are quite pricey, i got 2x 12cmx25mm ones for PSU and case, and 2x 12cmx38mm for WC radiator, they are quiet and built very well, i like them a lot. Very long life, which i am yet to find out :)

I really dont have time for all the in depth discussion right now (its 5am, I really should be sleeping), and you guys seem to be handling it fine, but I just have to say definitely go for the i7 920 (D0) and overclock it. It really is the way to go, Even if you bring it up to a very conservative 3.0GHz or so to match the 950, your still saving a nice chunk of change with really what is only one or two bios settings (depending if you need to enable overclocking on the motherboard) It really is just turning up one thing. With a good cooler its quite safe as well, you just crank it up, boot into windows test it out for a while check your tempatures etc. And honestly its so easy to hit 3.0 with an i7-920 that I would personally only do it in 2 hops, from stock up to 2.8 and then 2.8 up to 3.0.

I just dont want you or anyone to waste their money on (IMO) rubbish. I can sort of see a reason to get the extreme edition chips over say the cheap i7-920 due to a slightly different feature set, but the only difference between the 920 and the 950 is a few hundread MHz. Which is so easy to get back, honestly I will say that it would be stupid to buy the 950.

Edit Wow I started to ramble there, I must need some sleep.

You could go a lot quieter than the stock cooler with one of a number of affordable HSs and just run it on low. I'm also a bit skeptical that the Noctua fans cool all that well compared to others in their price range. I've read chat from a guy that bought a TRUE and put Noctua fans on it in push pull and it performed better with the one fan from his TT Big Typhon VX. In other words Noctua fans are quiet, but they need to be paired with a HS that doesn't have tightly spaced fins. CFM ratings and static pressure are two different things, and Noctua fans typically don't have much of the latter. So to get the most out of them, you'd want to buy their fan/HS set, which again, is expensive and overkill for just reducing noise on a stock speed CPU.

there is different noctua fans for different needs
of course if you're gonna pick a NF-S12-1200 (quietest fan aimed at unrestricted air flow, like for cases) it won't be that good as a CPU cooler ...

however even that one cools a Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme mounted on a [email protected] with no problem and perfect silence ...
that said a NF-P12 would be the right choice ... (better static pressure)
check out noctua.at


For a complete cooler, I would choose a NH-U12P SE2 (since the megahelems seems difficult to find in his region)

Well, like I said, now that he's talking about possible OCing, it changes things. My personal feeling though is the Noctuas are overpriced. If you look at the prices Jabtech has on TRUEs and even the Megahalems, it's not worth it to go Noctua.

Also, as he is talking possibly OCing now, I tend to agree with Da Fox to get the 920 and do a moderate OC. Esp since Microcenter has it for $200 right now (Fry's will match price too).

Just go as high as you can without a voltage increase, which should be at least that 3.4-3.6GHz range I mentioned. That is a no sweat speed for a 920 that will yield long lifespan, stability and cool temps.

Bear in mind that X-Warior is in Europe.

The Noctua isn't that much more expensive than a TRUE or Megahalem here. In fact, once you factor in the cost of the fans for the TRUE or Mega, the Noctua is the same or cheaper.

Don't go looking at prices on US sites.

X-W even linked to a Dutch site where he intends to buy from - http://www.alternate.nl

[quote]50dB seems like quite a bit compared to the 20 from the Noctua. I would really like something quiet for a change, not something that goes full blow 3 seconds after I push the switch. Yep, that's what my current one's doing right now, just for Opera. Maybe I got a setting wrong, but I can't quite find it :?. Very quiet would be really nice. Preferably I'd hear nothing, but I suppose that's not something I'll achieve.

Noctua fans are very good. They're damned expensive, though - a single 120mm Noctua fan costs £18 here!

Yate Loons my friend. Super cheap and damn quiet. SPCR did a review on them, and price point alone made them worth it. Couple it with a fan controller or volt-mod them, you'll never hear them, and they push more air than the noctua.

I got 3 of them in my p180. Really quieted the rig down.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2009/09/28/what-s-the-best-case-fan/1

That might be worth reading. Not sure I entirely agree with all of their conclusions, but there we are.

Right... the big advice here is overclock.

But, I've talked to some relatives, and there sure are some drawbacks to that:

- Bigger cooler required, thus negating part of the price difference.
- Probably more noise.
- Lose warranty - rather a biggie to me.
- Shorter lifespan.
- More power consumption?

The lifespan is actually important, as I kind of expect this to be my last big pc purchase for a long long time. 3 years won't cut it.

Therefore I think it may be best to stay away from overclocking. Bearing that in mind, the 2.67 GHz from a 920 just doesn't impress me enough. 3GHz sounds more like it, which explains my initial choice for the 950.

For a cooler I want something quiet, without requiring ridiculous amounts of work, like lapping the base. Isn't that what thermal paste is for anyway?
And one set please, not seperate heatsinks/fans/etc. I want to keep it easy :). Case fans are supplied with the TT Element S, which is still on the wishlist, and should suffice for that part. All that's required is a matching CPU cooler.

And PS is right in his previous post there - not everything is as easily available physically as the info on the internet. The shop I linked to actually has a huge selection already, which is my reason for picking them in the first place. It's still a few hours drive probably :roll:
So please select a cooler from this list.

Incidentally, this case would pretty much solve my cooling problems, but at a serious price tag. Probably not worth it. Has the coolness factor though.