Debate about Vert- in Mass Effect ...

[Glottis]

First of all, what makes you think vert- in this game is a bad thing? Obviously it was INTENDED by the developers. It was intended for a character to be that close to the screen and no intended to be further away like it is if you play at 4:3/5:4. Meaning that people playing this game the way it was not meant to be played are the ones on their 4:3/5:4 monitors and not us, WS users (well technically even 16:10 wasn't intended but let's not get into this).

So we WS users have tiny or no bars during the cutscenes and we play this game the way it was meant to be played and you are still unsatisfied. So what if it's vert- obviously that's what original xbox 360 version developers inteded.

And yes you can use FOV 100 or whatever in the console, but that'll mess up your cutscenes badly.

[BlueMak]

First of all, what makes you think vert- in this game is a bad thing? Obviously it was INTENDED by the developers. It was intended for a character to be that close to the screen and no intended to be further away like it is if you play at 4:3/5:4. Meaning that people playing this game the way it was not meant to be played are the ones on their 4:3/5:4 monitors and not us, WS users (well technically even 16:10 wasn't intended but let's not get into this).

So we WS users have tiny or no bars during the cutscenes and we play this game the way it was meant to be played and you are still unsatisfied. So what if it's vert- obviously that's not what original xbox 360 version developers inteded.

And yes you can use FOV 100 or whatever in the console, but that'll mess up your cutscenes badly.

So, to see if I understand you correctly, the developers intended to make the game so that the gamer has the exact same view from the left side of the screen to the right side of the screen no matter if they use a widescreen monitor/tv or not.
In fact, it was their plan from day 1 to make it so the users of 4:3 monitors/TVs, who are forced to not play the game as the developers wanted to (widescreen), to be punished by forcing them to not have zoomed in camera and forcing them to be able to see more from the bottom to the top of the screen.
I can see how that can be. It makes perfect sense to me to punish people with 4:3 monitors by giving them more real estate, and to award Widescreen monitors gamers with a zoomed in view and less view on the height of the view.

In fact, it is a well known knowledge that since most if not all of the games using Unreal3 engine have the same way of handling widescreen resolutions, that all the developers using the Unreal 3 engine, have the same exact artistic views on the matter, and has NOTHING to do with the developers not bothering enough to change a couple of lines of code and just use the engine as it was handed in to them.

In fact, we should all thank the gods that there is this connection of minds through space and time that allows so many different developers have the exact same view on how this should be handled.
Well done!

[Paddy the Wak]

Split from the Detailed Report for for the same reason this was ... http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13819

[Abram]

Whether it was intentional or not, it's still the wrong way to do it. I really cun't see how developers havn't realised this yet. At least add a FOV slider bar, folks.

[Psygnosis]

Mass Effect started on the 360, the 360 is a widescreen system. All games on it from the have to be made with that in mind. Obviously the developers must have taken this into consideration. If they chose to take an open matte approach to non-widescreen resolutions then so be it. As I don't have the game I'd like to know how ME360 treats 4:3 resolutions. If ME360 and MEPC are the same then I wont whine for a fix.

[Ryom]

In a 3D rendered world there is no good reason not to allow FOV changes. In a 3D rendered world, you don't have to choose Either Vert- or Horz+, both can be implemented.

I can understand anamorphic if the devs truly have an artistic vision in mind...

[kyleb]

Surely if you can accept letterboxing to a fixed aspect ratio, you could also see the reasoning open mattestyle presentations? Many directors prefer to do exactly as Mass Effect does for narrower aspect ratio viewings of their films. Would you say directors like Stanley Kubrick did widescreen wrong because they preferred 4:3 releases their work to be presented in open matte?

Granted I'd prefer the option to increase the FOV as well, but I can't rightly consider their implementation of widescreen wrong. Rather, just as when adapting 4:3 game to wider aspect ratios is wrong to cut off part of the view, nothing should be cut off when adapting a 16:9 game to narrower aspect ratios either. Unilike movies, games don't rightly even have the option to use pan and scan for narrower aspect ratios, since the player is often in control of the view.

[Ryom]

The edge is cutoff going down to 4:3 from 16:9 because of the naturally thinner aspect, so removing the edges retains the perspective and things look the same... no zooming! This is normal and desirable... not a trade-off.

However, when we are using a 3D rendered world and not film which is limited by physical realities, so we can give the player lots of choice.
Do they want to letterbox? Let them.
Do they want to have a huge or narrow FOV? Let them.
Do they want to go vert- or horz+? Let them either way.

There are no limitations with a 3D game world available. In a properly designed game, the devs would give the players the ability to set their view how they like. It is possible to please everyone!

[kyleb]

The trade off with cutting off the edges is that developers makes their games game to present scenes such as walking into an area to find enemies attacking from both edges on a 16:9 display, then 4:3 users get attacked from off screen since those edges are cut off for thinner aspect ratios. Just like 4:3 games adapted to widescreen using vert- can mess up gameplay because they leave us not seeing stuff at the top and bottom we were intended to see, so does cropping of the sides of a widescreen game with adapting it down to 4:3.

Regardless, I agree that it is shameless that UE3 doesn't have anything like the DesiredFOV and DefaultFOV options we use to tweak all those games built on previous iterations of UE. If Epic were on the ball they would have expanded their engine to include a separate HUD FOV scaling so triple head users could easily adjust the HUD to fit their main monitors.

[JohnnyWakko]

The trade off with cutting off the edges is that developers makes their games game to present scenes such as walking into an area to find enemies attacking from both edges on a 16:9 display, then 4:3 users get attacked from off screen since those edges are cut off for thinner aspect ratios. ...

That is not true. Because in a 3D environment, you can be facing any direction, so it shouldn't matter how wide or narrow your FOV is as something jumping at you from behind/top/left/right won't suprise anyone if they are already facing the behind/top/left/right in the first place.

That's the whole point of a 3D world, it lets your look around uninterupted.

If designers want to scare someone with an ambush for EG, then they have to have things jumping our from behind corners or objects. No matter teh FOV, you can't see behind a corners unless you are hacking.

FOV should not affect level design. They should expect everyone to be looking everywhere, as this is exactly what is happening.

[Abram]

After putting a few hours into the game i can say that i don't really miss the extra FOV. I never thought I'd see myself say that.. most baddies can often been seen on radar, and you can usually hear them before you ever see them. Were it a FPS game, I'd bitch more. BUt it's okay as is. (of course if a fix came along I'd damned well use it)

Whether or not the way it came out was intended from the start, or design decision gone awry, it's still wrong in my book.

[kyleb]

That is not true. Because in a 3D environment, you can be facing any direction, so it shouldn't matter how wide or narrow your FOV is as something jumping at you from behind/top/left/right won't suprise anyone if they are already facing the behind/top/left/right in the first place.

You be having trouble understanding what I've been explaining, but that doesn't make it anything less than the truth. When people walk forward though a doorway or other chokepoint, they natrually look forward at where they are going. Many level designers understand this fact and use it to their advantage, and hence the FOV of a game does effect their level designs.

If designers want to scare someone with an ambush for EG, then they have to have things jumping our from behind corners or objects. No matter teh FOV, you can't see behind a corners unless you are hacking.

Again, the issue I was presenting is when the designers don't intend the players to feel abushed from out of nowhere, but rather to see the enemies attacking from either side. Croping off the sides for 4:3 views would subvert that intent.

[BlueMak]

So, why do WS users get the shaft and get reduced height of the game area instead of bars on the sides? Is it because the developers give the finger to them or because the developers believe that cut down screen area for widescreen users is part of their artistic view of the game?

What a bunch of bullshit.

[kyleb]

So, why do WS users get the shaft and get reduced height of the game area instead of bars on the sides?

You are overlooking the fact that this game was designed to target the 16:9 widesreen aspect ratio. 16:10 widescreen users like yourself would need bars on the top and bottom to format your display to the 16:9 aspect ratio view the game was designed around. You aren't getting a reduced height of the game, you are getting more height than the intended 16:9 view because the developers chose make full use of your display rather than crop such narrower displays down to narrower FOVs or letterbox the game to maintain a fixed aspect ratio.

[JohnnyWakko]

they natrually look forward at where they are going.

That is very presumtious. I pan left and right before I go through a door way. Regardless of my FOV, I will make sure I see the same thing.
If I do, then there would be others who do it and similar things.

Besides if it is a doorway, a large FOV can't see through it until it passes through the door way. But the same goes for a small FOV, it can't see through it until it passes through it at which point it has the same opportunity to be looking in whatever direction it wants, hence the 3D.

[BlueMak]

[quote]So, why do WS users get the shaft and get reduced height of the game area instead of bars on the sides?

You are overlooking the fact that this game was designed to target the 16:9 widesreen aspect ratio. 16:10 widescreen users like yourself would need bars on the top and bottom to format your display to the 16:9 aspect ratio view the game was designed around. You aren't getting a reduced height of the game, you are getting more height than the intended 16:9 view because the developers chose make full use of your display rather than crop such narrower displays down to narrower FOVs or letterbox the game to maintain a fixed aspect ratio.

I wasn't actualy talking about Mass Effect, but in general.
When games, such as Gears of War, Bioshit and others if you play the game on a 4:3 resolution you get the same width but more height than in a 16:9 or 16:10 resolution. So you end up with either stretched image/view or an artificial zooming in so that the left and right end of the WS view is the exact same point as for the 4:3 user, and cut down height which makes absolutely no sense other that they couldn't be bothered with.

And when this repeatedly happens with games using the Unreal 3 engine, then you begin to see a pattern there. Also, since games after patches have made it clear that it is not a limitation of the engine itself (Rainbow Six Vegas, Bioshit) just that they didn't want to spend half an hour to fix the game for widescreen users and follow a copy and paste mentality in coding. (yes, very simplified but you get my point, I hope)

[kyleb]

[quote] they natrually look forward at where they are going.

That is very presumtious. I pan left and right before I go through a door way. Regardless of my FOV, I will make sure I see the same thing.
If I do, then there would be others who do it and similar things.

Besides if it is a doorway, a large FOV can't see through it until it passes through the door way. But the same goes for a small FOV, it can't see through it until it passes through it at which point it has the same opportunity to be looking in whatever direction it wants, hence the 3D.

Sure, the opertunity is there, but more casual gamers often won't explot it. Again, developers often create their envoriments with such considerations in mind, and narrowing the FOV for narrower aspect ratios would subvert such intents.

[quote][quote]So, why do WS users get the shaft and get reduced height of the game area instead of bars on the sides?

You are overlooking the fact that this game was designed to target the 16:9 widesreen aspect ratio. 16:10 widescreen users like yourself would need bars on the top and bottom to format your display to the 16:9 aspect ratio view the game was designed around. You aren't getting a reduced height of the game, you are getting more height than the intended 16:9 view because the developers chose make full use of your display rather than crop such narrower displays down to narrower FOVs or letterbox the game to maintain a fixed aspect ratio.

I wasn't actualy talking about Mass Effect, but in general...
All the games you metion were designed to target the 16:9 widesreen aspect ratio, just the same as Mass Effect.

[BlueMak]

All the games you metion were designed to target the 16:9 widesreen aspect ratio, just the same as Mass Effect.

BS. The only thing they did for 16:9 users was to zoom in the view and cut the height of the view.

[kyleb]

Do you really think those developers and publishers would promote their game with screenshots and video exclusively in 16:9 aspect ratio if that wasn't their intended view. BioShock, Gears of War, and the Rainbow Six: Vegas games, like Mass Effect, were all designed to target the 16:9 output modes of current generation consoles. Furthermore, situations in all those games can be found which behaving exactly as I described to JohnnyWakko above, where narrowing the FOV for narrower aspect ratios would crop out things which were obviously meant to be seen from a given view.

[BlueMak]

Dude you are just trolling.