Widescreen Gaming Forum

Just about every review site I know is very careful about avoiding spoilers, so what exactly is this 'purity' of which he speaks?

Hint: It involves negative press.

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/61013

Whoring to the masses.

Sigh.....

Next we'll find out there's a monthly subscription fee.

I do not have the power to comprehend how Dedicated Servers are only for the "Professional/Hardcore Crowd" as many players and news outlets are playing it.


What the hell is that supposed to mean? Playing mods is hardcore and only for professionals? Ditto for simply forming or congregating around a gaming community?

It's basically the media toeing the party line of 'keep the console gamers happy' at all costs. If the console gamers realise just how much better dedicated servers are compared to matchmaking and lobby nonsense (particularly because it'll mean no hosts being bandwidth throttled by unscrupulous ISPs) they'll all want it as well. ;)

I think the game media is more about pushing what is "good enough" versus what is best. Matchmaking is good enough, mp3 audio is good enough, dvd video is good enough...

Most people, as in consumers, want what is "good enough" as convienent as possible. More than "good enough" is not worth the trade in conveinence. Then the gaming media wants to make these people happy, so they support what is good enough and conveinent as well. I just watched the quick look at http://www.giantbomb.com for Borderlands and the commentator was comparing the PC and Xbox versions and he listed all these reasons why the PC version looks and plays better, but then at the end his summary was "get the Xbox version if you can for the simpler matchmaking multiplayer."

This is why in my opinion piracy and cost, while being negatives of the PC platform, are not the main reason it is lagging behind console sales more and more as gaming goes mainstream. It is simply most people think console graphics, controls and options are "good enough" and consoles are a lot easier to use and more conveinent.

I guess I am just happy that I have never played any COD games, but I was in...WAS interested in the new one.

It's just getting worse and worse.

Tycho at Penny Arcade responds, and I have to say he makes a lot of sense.

I've read so many posts of such a batshit, bugfuck nature about this Modern Warfare Server Thing that it's hard to know where to begin. If you are angry at this break from tradition, and if you feel betrayed by these eleventh hour revelations, these are both situated well within the reasonable and comport (by and large) to the known. Do not buy it. Your platform of choice is the most open, universal digital venue on the planet. A suitor will be along presently.

It's not cherry-picking to say that the notion of Microsoft somehow being involved runs deep. You could be charitable and say they mean Infinity Ward was infected somehow by Microsoft's peer to peer vision, but that's not what they're saying. They're talking about literal collusion to bring about the downfall of the PC. Even though Modern Warfare 2 is launching on Steam, leverages Steamworks, and grants Steam Achievements.

Some of the rage is channeled semi-constructively into (not a boycott, per se, but) a redirection of funds from Modern Warfare 2 over to Battlefield: Bad Company 2 - a notion that has been cannily seized by the would-be recipient. Bad Company 2 is going to be pretty good, so why not buy it - but let's pause for a moment and really absorb the idea that PC gamers are rallying around a DICE console port in their zeal. Nevermind the fact that you can't host your own Bad Company servers, and that having a dedicated server for the game involves renting it from one of their partners. Maybe they didn't read the FAQ?

As to why they want to create their own matchmaking network in the first place, the ability to make money selling maps is floated as a reason, and it makes a lot of sense - presumably they would rather make a million dollars than zero. A centralized defense against piracy is also suggested, and things tend to go downhill quick after this. It is not a mischaracterization to say that conversations with the hardcore PC community about software theft follow these tenets:

- There is no piracy.
- To the extent that piracy exists, which it doesn't, it's your fault.
- If you try to protect your game, we'll steal it as a matter of principle.

It's like, who wouldn't want to bend over backward in their service? You need to know it, because nobody else is going to tell you: you guys sound like Goddamned subway vagrants. Of course when you speak exclusively to each other, it all sounds so reasonable. It'll be reasonable when you all board the bus, and the songs you sing en route to excoriate your enemies will be forceful, but within reason; and when you douse yourself with gasoline and immolate yourself in front of the offices of Infinity Ward, one assumes this will be reasonable also.

Well I disagree, he is just (as always) stirring up trouble cos he is a name and can effectively swear on line. I played a game of Op Flash Dragon Rising MP (several actually for the DR) and on every single one I had awful, peer-to-peer lag. I did the same on XBox Borderlands last night as well.

For those of us not in countries and regions not blessed with good broadband peer-to-peer sucks...

..esp if your ISP throttles!

He is equating those who disagree with this to those who are pirates... 2 different things. His rant is just as bad as some of the idiotic anti-IW rants I have seen. He needs to get some perspective, this is well reasoned

He's not really praising peer-to-peer, he is just saying the response has been overwhelmingly immature, and to that I agree. The simple response is not to buy the game, wait for a better more PC-focused game, which is what he says.

I agree with all that.

The piracy thing I agree with too, it is almost impossibly on a PC focused forum to get people to admit piracy is just plain wrong. So many people try to find a way to justify it in some way, or blame companies for it, that we miss the opportunity to make piracy so hated and reviled in the PC gaming community it makes them ashamed to poke their head into a normal forum.

On that I agree completely as well.

Ugh don't get me started on Borderlands P2P... It's a fucking bitch.

Well I think he needs to sherlter himself from the net then, because it is the norm! He needs to get off his high horse and accept that the internet is full of idiots...

I have just seen that the L4D2 Demo is delayed, unlike the XBOX version, went to he official forum to see for how long.. here is a selection of posts (for a 24 hour delay of a Demo FFS)

"I feel like killing myself right now. Thank you so much."
"It's so nice to know for sure now that Valve has completely sold out to console...screw you Valve"
"give me my money back now i dont want the game anymore. i give up on you lazy lying ♥♥♥♥ers"
"Valve...
KISS MY SWEATY NUT SACK.
Then twirl your tongue around in my butt hole for a while eh?"

And there is worse this is just the first 2 pages of a many page thread (of many threads!)

So he needs to just pull is head in and avoid the intarwebs if he doesn't want nerd rage. Not having dedicated servers is a big blow to many, especially if that is how your company makes money.

Ugh don't get me started on Borderlands P2P... It's a frak bitch.

Not so bad on XBox, just join on party (like MW2 LOL) but the host has to have a bl0ody good connection, we try and join on our cable guy, but he wasn't there that night.

Tycho at Penny Arcade responds, and I have to say he makes a lot of sense.

I've read so many...one assumes this will be reasonable also.

Tycho does make an accurate (if somewhat long-winded) point: that the reaction of some PC gamers has been overblown and unreasonable. I jumped over to his site and saw that this is basically the entirety of his post. I don't follow Penny Arcade regularly...have you seen him make any other comments on the MWF2 situation?

I wonder about this because while I have seen what he describes, I've also witnessed a great deal of angry and reasonable reactions, focusing on the real technical and communal backstab suffered by the PC community. Perhaps this indicates a difference in the sources I follow, but every time I've seen someone rant off about "no piracy" or "I'll steal it to prove a point", someone else will call them out as a moron.

Ultimately, posts/articles/blogs entries/etc. that amount to nothing more than "quit your whining" don't accomplish anything, IME.

Yesterday I listened to the original BASH "podcast heard round the world". It's excellent and I think everyone who cares should listen to it. If I can find some time I'll post especially poignant cuts for folks who don't have 70mins of free time.

Ugh don't get me started on Borderlands P2P... It's a frak bitch.

Wait, Borderlands uses P2P MP and no dedis? That stinks.

With coop do you really need dedis? I play Left 4 Dead with a couple friends on my own connection all the time without problems.

Yesterday I listened to the original BASH "podcast heard round the world". It's excellent and I think everyone who cares should listen to it. If I can find some time I'll post especially poignant cuts for folks who don't have 70mins of free time.

I listened to it, and they were very reasonable. Also I listened to the follow-up and was surprised to hear all of them say they are buying the game and will give matchmaking a try.

With coop do you really need dedis? I play Left 4 Dead with a couple friends on my own connection all the time without problems.

AFAIK, L4D always uses a dedicated server and the lobby system is just a simple way to configure your game. In fact I think L4D has one of, if not the best, MP technical models around, which is both matchmaking and dedis.
-correction-
I checked the game menu and it does have a Local Server option. Is that what you run, SV?

I listened to it, and they were very reasonable. Also I listened to the follow-up and was surprised to hear all of them say they are buying the game and will give matchmaking a try.

Didn't hear the follow up but I'm not too surprised. The community guys and the host were doing everything they could to try to be positive but were clearly disappointed/upset. One fellow even pitched the idea of trying to throw a graphics card into a server box to try to create a pseudo-dedi for MP. Bowling couldn't answer this question, of course.

Those guys on the cast clearly act like community leaders, trying to find light in the gloom, and it's admirable. Most of them also stated that their respective communities could very well end up passing on MWF2 altogether because of what IW has done with MP.

[quote]With coop do you really need dedis? I play Left 4 Dead with a couple friends on my own connection all the time without problems.

AFAIK, L4D always uses a dedicated server and the lobby system is just a simple way to configure your game. In fact I think L4D has one of, if not the best, MP technical models around, which is both matchmaking and dedis.
-correction-
I checked the game menu and it does have a Local Server option. Is that what you run, SV?

Yeah, whenever we play mods we use local servers, because all the mod servers from the community have stupid things attached to them like fire bullets or laser sights or whatever.

Any sort of P2P or 'user hosted' multiplayer scenario requires the host of the game, as Mach has already said, to be on a bloody good connection.

While I get a reasonable 1.2MB/s download speed (when my ISP isn't deciding to throttle me because I've downloaded more than ~200MB in a day) the upload speed I obtain (and this is through a cable connection!) is never much better than 36KB/s. Now, I'm sorry, but 36KB/s is not enough to host a game well. Then when you add the potential of a lot of UK ISPs who deliberately high-ping any P2P connection in an attempt to make the connection die from lag, you have a recipe for disaster if you're trying to game.

If game companies are going to try to force the use of P2P for multiplayer, they need to lobby ISPs to stop this behaviour.

Wait, Borderlands uses P2P MP and no dedis? That stinks.

Yep, the lack of a battle.net type service basically ruins the online. Thankfully as a small coop game, I.E. only playing private games with your friends regionally close to you its just fine. It really shows that online is more or less an afterthought, its not well executed what so ever.

Yeah, whenever we play mods we use local servers, because all the mod servers from the community have stupid things attached to them like fire bullets or laser sights or whatever.

Laser sights are NOT stupid!! :|

[quote]Ugh don't get me started on Borderlands P2P... It's a frak bitch.

Not so bad on XBox, just join on party (like MW2 LOL) but the host has to have a bl0ody good connection, we try and join on our cable guy, but he wasn't there that night.

Yeah I'm just saying My friend was preloading L4D2 Demo(at 300KB/s on a 7/1MB connection); He was hosting, borderlands was basically unplayable for everyone else until he turned it off, and it was still not great.

AFAIK, L4D always uses a dedicated server and the lobby system is just a simple way to configure your game. In fact I think L4D has one of, if not the best, MP technical models around, which is both matchmaking and dedis.
-correction-
I checked the game menu and it does have a Local Server option. Is that what you run, SV?

Any sort of P2P or 'user hosted' multiplayer scenario requires the host of the game, as Mach has already said, to be on a bloody good connection.

Every time that the host fails to find a dedicated server that the system deems worthy it falls back to a listen server hosted by the lobby leader... I would gander that 4 out of 5 times its absolutely horrible. The host obviously has ~5 ping, while everyone else is at 300+. There is that odd time that someone will have a good connection and everyone will get 100-150 ping which is acceptable.

[quote]Tycho at Penny Arcade responds, and I have to say he makes a lot of sense.

I've read so many...one assumes this will be reasonable also.

Tycho does make an accurate (if somewhat long-winded) point: that the reaction of some PC gamers has been overblown and unreasonable. I jumped over to his site and saw that this is basically the entirety of his post. I don't follow Penny Arcade regularly...have you seen him make any other comments on the MWF2 situation?

I wonder about this because while I have seen what he describes, I've also witnessed a great deal of angry and reasonable reactions, focusing on the real technical and communal backstab suffered by the PC community. Perhaps this indicates a difference in the sources I follow, but every time I've seen someone rant off about "no piracy" or "I'll steal it to prove a point", someone else will call them out as a moron.

Ultimately, posts/articles/blogs entries/etc. that amount to nothing more than "quit your whining" don't accomplish anything, IME.

Yesterday I listened to the original BASH "podcast heard round the world". It's excellent and I think everyone who cares should listen to it. If I can find some time I'll post especially poignant cuts for folks who don't have 70mins of free time.

Ugh don't get me started on Borderlands P2P... It's a frak bitch.

Wait, Borderlands uses P2P MP and no dedis? That stinks.

I actually thought the Penny Arcade thing was being Ironic, in that it was sucking you in thinking it was saying exactly your point that the gamer's reaction is overblown, but in the end it kind of alluded to the fact that it agrees with the comments...

Guess i'm just weird.