Widescreen Gaming Forum

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -Bill Cosby

Exactly.

Sunspot:
Firstly let me say I really do appreciate you coming here and giving us your honest opinions and thoughts. It's that kind of response that will bring a developer like myself to a gaming forum just to ask a few questions. Here is my take:

I appreciate your honesty about Linux, and I figured as much. AMD buying out ATI hasn't changed anything in the ATI Linux landscape. Your Linux drivers still suck. As of September your proprietary Catalyst Drivers are still getting the smack down by OSS drivers in 2D http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_r700_2d&num=4 That's gotta be embarrassing. What aggravates me is the marketing hype. I completely understand not supporting the p L p because it was never promised but your company needs to stop promising things it can't deliver.

On a broader note, I must disagree with you sunspot. I don't think we will be seeing flocks or throngs of people running out to spend this kind of money on an eyefinity setup. This is a niche, has always been a niche, and given the economy will continue to be a niche for some time.When you say 4-5 times the amount of 4960x1600 owner will buy these setups, yea for sure, but I'm sure you'd agree 4960x1600 is a niche within a niche. I've scoured the web for 4960x1600 owners and have only confirmed maybe 15-20? Good investment for AMD? Doubtful. I hate to say it but releasing a product that requires such a huge outset of money in an already suffering market is pretty fool hardy. Seems like more of a marketing gimmick than a reality. Economic factors aren't gonna change overnight no matter how much you, I, or all the other screen zealots here drool and lust over this tech.

Then again time will tell, I could certainly be wrong.

I would doubt that the bezel features, if they ever arrive, will come without a substantial performance hit. Anytime you are doing this kind of image processing at a software level your gonna get burned. For those of us with 4960x1600 (which I must agree far supersedes most other combos in value and usability) we will probably be better off waiting for Larabee or Fermi and using SoftTH until there is a hardware solution.

On another note I just went to dinner w/ an Intel employee who knows a few people working on Larabee. Although Nvidia looks like it is in trouble, Intel is going strong. I doubt they will compete with you on this niche level but I guarantee they aren't gonna let AMD take any kind of crown for long. I'd also bet they will support Linux. They don't call it a rivalry for nothing.

[quote]I am positive that a 30inch in the center and (2) 20 inch side panels qualify as high performance HD+ gaming...

Let me clarify, I believe these cards can run (3) 30 inch montiors but not effectively..

In the current EF implementation most of the arbitrary configurations will trash performance in SLS modes. As I previously noted, pLp is a configuration of interest, but there are many things we are going to do with EF. Rsources aren't infinite.

5870 runs three 30" monitors very effectively. In fact it runs six 2560H 1600V monitors very effectively. Yeah CF would be better, but a single GPU is quite good.

Maybe semantically our defintions of effectivley may vary.. Currently we have a set up of 3 Dell 2408WFP's and 1 5870 running Eyefinity.. On most games it is adequate but take Crysis for example effective frame rates do not supercede medium settings.. Fairly low detail and shaders with maybe 40-45 FPS.. Granted it is stock settings on the card but perfromance matters on these settings.. Stalker Clear Sky is basically unplayable averaging 20-30 FPS not exactly effective rendering.. This is at 3X1920X1200 I can't imagine 3X2560X1600 would be very effective in these games with one 5870..

On a broader note, I must disagree with you sunspot. I don't think we will be seeing flocks or throngs of people running out to spend this kind of money on an eyefinity setup. This is a niche, has always been a niche, and given the economy will continue to be a niche for some time.When you say 4-5 times the amount of 4960x1600 owner will buy these setups, yea for sure, but I'm sure you'd agree 4960x1600 is a niche within a niche. I've scoured the web for 4960x1600 owners and have only confirmed maybe 15-20? Good investment for AMD? Doubtful. I hate to say it but releasing a product that requires such a huge outset of money in an already suffering market is pretty fool hardy. Seems like more of a marketing gimmick than a reality. Economic factors aren't gonna change overnight no matter how much you, I, or all the other screen zealots here drool and lust over this tech.

I don't think you've been following the discussion that we've been having in these forums. We are not advocating that the majority body of users go out an buy 3 panels the second they get their cards, we are offering this as a value add feature - a few (such as many of those on this forum) will go out and do it, other will expepant over time. This is precisely why we have implemtented this in the fashion we have - because we can offer it without much of a penalty to the body of users that will never look at this feature.

And, FYI - The first Linux driver supporting 5800 series will be later in October. These will not support Eyefinity though.

[quote]On a broader note, I must disagree with you sunspot. I don't think we will be seeing flocks or throngs of people running out to spend this kind of money on an eyefinity setup. This is a niche, has always been a niche, and given the economy will continue to be a niche for some time.When you say 4-5 times the amount of 4960x1600 owner will buy these setups, yea for sure, but I'm sure you'd agree 4960x1600 is a niche within a niche. I've scoured the web for 4960x1600 owners and have only confirmed maybe 15-20? Good investment for AMD? Doubtful. I hate to say it but releasing a product that requires such a huge outset of money in an already suffering market is pretty fool hardy. Seems like more of a marketing gimmick than a reality. Economic factors aren't gonna change overnight no matter how much you, I, or all the other screen zealots here drool and lust over this tech.

I don't think you've been following the discussion that we've been having in these forums. We are not advocating that the majority body of users go out an buy 3 panels the second they get their cards, we are offering this as a value add feature - a few (such as many of those on this forum) will go out and do it, other will expepant over time. This is precisely why we have implemented this in the fashion we have - because we can offer it without much of a penalty to the body of users that will never look at this feature.

And, FYI - The first Linux driver supporting 5800 series will be later in October. These will not support Eyefinity though.

Actually Dave, I've read every post on this thread, I've scoured for info on this. I just think that Sunspot is splitting hairs, I am really trying to communicate the reality of this "feature". It is mostly marketing hype. Reminds me of Nvidia's 3D glasses. I also think it is interesting that you refuse to address the fact that a group of volunteers has out coded your own developers in the 2D segment. Believe it or not your own eyefinity page http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/eyefinity/Pages/eyefinity.aspx says your going to provide eyefinity linux support. I'll believe it when I see it, talk is cheap, online marketing text - cheaper. So what if your releasing crappy drivers later this month? How many linux users are you really gonna get?

I guess my greater point is, it is ridiculous to see you guys talking so much about active adapters and such for the triple head gaming segment which is a niche, and yet totally ignore your lack of support to the linux community. While it was a niche in the past thie Linux community is growing strong, and any amount development would be a good investment for AMD from an economic viewpoint. Given your driver quality and support , or more specifically lack thereof, very few Linux users want your products.

BTW if you really are saying you aren't advocating for users to go out and buy screens to use Eyefinity this would probably not be the forum to do it in. These users are all here because they specifically want this feature. Your talking to the choir who practices 3 times a week here not the masses in the pews. In case you haven't gotten this point yet, most people here already have 3 screens. With that attitude you can't expect to be well received here. Wrong audience.

I could be wrong on all of this but I've followed the 3D accelerator market from my first voodoo board, I have used Linux for the same amount of time. Seems like you guys are a bit out of touch.

I know your defensive because eyefinity is your baby but it's not as cute & wonderful as you think ... sorry!

I have access to the Catalyst download stats and I can tell you that the level of resource that we have dedicated to Linux far outweighs the proportion of users downloading the drivers. As for some open sourced 2D driver outperforming our own - great! That's one of the reasons we fully adopted the open source community and detailed our register spec, unlike some of our competitors; we're glad to see that's being put to good use!

As for Eyefinity and Linux, it is actively being worked on and a future driver will come with support. The 24 panel demo that people talked about on the USS Hornet was actually done on Linux and that demo already had bezel correction as well (IIRC).

If you have anything more to say over the general support of Linux then I'm not convinced that this is the forum for it.

BTW if you really are saying you aren't advocating for users to go out and buy screens to use Eyefinity this would probably not be the forum to do it in. These users are all here because they specifically want this feature. Your talking to the choir who practices 3 times a week here not the masses in the pews. In case you haven't gotten this point yet, most people here already have 3 screens. With that attitude you can't expect to be well received here. Wrong audience.

As I've mentioned previously, I talk about the majority of users. We can offer Eyefinity because we are doing so at a minimal cost to the overall solution. That, however, has no bearing on why I participate here - I participate here precisely because the users here are the incumbent target market for us and I want to try and offer whatever help I am able to and also learn as much as I can off of them (which I have to say, I already have learnt lots). Ultimately, however minimally over the grand scheme of things, Eyefinity will grow the Widescreen gaming audience and I hope that will be beneficial to the community already here.

Also, "my baby" is the ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series of products, though Eyefinity (in a gaming sense) is likely to be used on these products more than others in the range.

If you have anything more to say over the general support of Linux then I'm not convinced that this is the forum for it.

Thats true. This is not the place for general Linux discussions nor general ATI discussions. Eyefinity for Linux can be discussed here though.

Come on guys, don't attack Dave Baumann here with questions about every thing concerning Ati in general. I have tons of questions I would have wanted to ask (other features then Eyefinity), but I don't want to spoil the oportunity we have here, so I don't ask.

Eyefinity is giving everyone with a 5000 series card triplehead capabilities. Two friends with a screen (each) and an adapter and everyone can try it at home. I don't like the high price of the adapter, but other then that, this is a big bonus for widescreen gamers and triplehead wannabee's (try before you buy more screens).

Eyefinity is in its startfase and even the drivers are currently in its beta's. We have a chance here to give our inputs on how to make it work as we want it directly to those that makes the decitions, so lets do just that. Focus on making Eyefinity the best it can be and don't spoil it for others by making them answer for everything else not related.

I have access to the Catalyst download stats and I can tell you that the level of resource that we have dedicated to Linux far outweighs the proportion of users downloading the drivers. As for some open sourced 2D driver outperforming our own - great! That's one of the reasons we fully adopted the open source community and detailed our register spec, unlike some of our competitors; we're glad to see that's being put to good use!

As for Eyefinity and Linux, it is actively being worked on and a future driver will come with support. The 24 panel demo that people talked about on the USS Hornet was actually done on Linux and that demo already had bezel correction as well (IIRC).

If you have anything more to say over the general support of Linux then I'm not convinced that this is the forum for it.
Also, "my baby" is the ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series of products, though Eyefinity (in a gaming sense) is likely to be used on these products more than others in the range.

Did you ever stop and think that you aren't getting catalyst driver downloads because they are poor quality? I agree I am happy to see you support the open source community, I just think its telling that your own paid dev team can't match a bunch of volunteers spread throughout the globe.

I have to take issue with your 24 Panel demo as a total marketing gimmick bezel correction or not, 4 seperate sessions of xplane? Yea that's realistic.... Anyway whats so great about a high res display you have to play from 15 feet, are you even going to notice? PersonallyI think most would notice the bezels more than the increased resolution. I found the 3 x HD projector to be much cooler!

I would apologize for posting Linux related topics here, but this was the only place I could find active reps talking about the technology. That being said I invite you or any of your colleagues to come and become active participants in a linux graphics based forum. (Phoronix comes to mind, although you might be aware that most people over there have similar opinions about ATI/AMD and you probably don't want to hear from them either.)

I really hope your right about the Eyefinity tech making it to Linux, given the track record of your company, I'm not so sure it will come and if it does,I have my doubts as to whether it will be usable & stable.

Anyway sorry for all the prodding, but it was effective and thanks to you I finally got the info I needed to make my decisions. Despite our disagreements I would like to thank you for being here and I wish you the best of luck.

PS: Stop working already it's the weekend. :)

I have to take issue with your 24 Panel demo as a total marketing gimmick bezel correction or not, 4 seperate sessions of xplane? Yea that's realistic.... Anyway whats so great about a high res display you have to play from 15 feet, are you even going to notice? PersonallyI think most would notice the bezels more than the increased resolution. I found the 3 x HD projector to be much cooler!

I would apologize for posting Linux related topics here, but this was the only place I could find active reps talking about the technology.

I think his point was that they had Eyefinity running on Linux AND that they had bezel management on it as well. :)

I can understand the desire to post when its possible to reach someone directly from a company. I can see you got it off your chest now and hope that your post will be the last one here with questions not related to Eyefinity.

I'm adding the link to the ATI/AMD section of Phoronix (I guess you wanted to avoid site pimping, so I do it for you. :) ):

http://www.phoronix.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19

[quote]
If you have anything more to say over the general support of Linux then I'm not convinced that this is the forum for it.

Thats true. This is not the place for general Linux discussions nor general ATI discussions. Eyefinity for Linux can be discussed here though.
.

... Focus on making Eyefinity the best it can be and don't spoil it for others by making them answer for everything else not related.

Tamlin,
Sorry mate, I know this is your forum and I want to assure you that Eyefinity for Linux was my primary motivation in asking any questions. If you more carefully review my posts I think you will realize that. Not trying to bring in too much background information but I was trying to make a few points (and yes I was prodding a bit.) Considering AMD has officially announced Eyefinity support on Linux I think the members of the Linux community deserve a place here too. I had to ask repeatedly just to get the answer of I don't know and then the answer of drivers in October but no Eyefinity, and now Eyefinity someday with bezel corretion. If you really feel that my posts are distracting from valid questions others have by all means moderate away and delete them. I realize most of you are windows users but I can assure you there are quite a few linux users who are looking for 3D accelerated multimonitor support. Example. Anwyay, I'm done so don't worry I wont post anymore and I wont give Dave or Sunspot any more of a hard time. You guys can now continue to ask about active adapters to your hearts content.

Peace

[quote][quote]
If you have anything more to say over the general support of Linux then I'm not convinced that this is the forum for it.

Thats true. This is not the place for general Linux discussions nor general ATI discussions. Eyefinity for Linux can be discussed here though.
.

... Focus on making Eyefinity the best it can be and don't spoil it for others by making them answer for everything else not related.

Tamlin,
Sorry mate, I know this is your forum and I want to assure you that Eyefinity for Linux was my primary motivation in asking any questions. If you more carefully review my posts I think you will realize that.

(snip to make it shorter) :)

] Anwyay, I'm done so don't worry I wont post anymore and I wont give Dave or Sunspot any more of a hard time. You guys can now continue to ask about active adapters to your hearts content.

Peace

Please don't misunderstand. :) As I said, Eyefinity for Linux belongs here. I was refering to the offtopic questions (general linux) and other off topics not posted by you.

Though there are most windows users here, Linux and Mac questions are just as valid, so fire away with as much questions as you wish regarding Eyefinity on any platform. You are most welcome to post as much as you can regarding this. Especially since there are not that much Linux tripleheaders, so you can do the linux community much good by asking questions here about Eyefinity! Please don't stop doing that! :cheers

I'm just afraid of getting a storm of questions to Dave and Sunspot about every other issue people might have with ATI besides Eyefinity.

Yeah man this is no way to approach the obstacles we are speaking of.. I mean really unless you are an engineer working under the construction and creation of Eyefinity you really have no business making demands about the technology..

The fact of the matter remains that this is a great addition to the gaming community and if you were running TH2GO Matrox, your life just got a lot less complicated.. I mean honestly it takes me 3 video cards to run my current setup, and the thought of 1 video card to do it all even if Eyefinity isn't supported on a PLP 4960X1600 setup is still VERY appealing.. Less power consumption, frees up my mobo, powerful 1 card solution...

To wumba and l88bastard:

This is a discussion where the creators of this technology are sharing their EXTREMELY VALUABLE INPUT and I see absolutely no reason to attack and insult people, because you didn't get your way or hear the answer you wanted... If these guys stop responding because of your internet tantrums we all lose.. Show some class both of you or leave please "seriously"...

To SunSp*t:

" You may not realize it, but you want me to be right and you to be wrong. Think about it."

I don't get it? Right about what? Wrong about what? Think about what? I guess I missed the deep philosophical implications that were embeded in this message can you please clarify what you are trying to say here?

" You may not realize it, but you want me to be right and you to be wrong. Think about it."

I don't get it? Right about what? Wrong about what? Think about what? I guess I missed the deep philosophical implications that were embeded in this message can you please clarify what you are trying to say here?

At the birth of any new technology or product, there is a lack of standards, and many flavors of market entries. For example in the early days of the PC market, say 1977 to 1982, there were many PC architectures, all very, very different. The PC market didn't explode until it coalesced around the IBM PC. Interesting things were lost in that event, but it is clear they were non-essential or more usefully implemented in a different way. The same thing was true for automobiles between 1890 and 1907 or thereabouts, when everyone more-or-less coalesced around what Ford had done. Standardization of features enables market expansion.

Use of more than three or more displays is today non-standard - it is more-or-less custom. To make use of three or more displays widespread, some interesting things will have to be lost or addressed differently on the path to a useful but complete set of features. That useful complete subset will become the standard.

From what I can tell, EF does a couple of things which are going to have to be standard if HD immersion is going to take-off:

[list]Use DP as the primary display interface.
Use SLS, with any limitations it may have, for gaming.[/list:u]
Some folks will be unhappy with this, but you have to ask yourselves: do you want widescreen gaming to be the very small niche is currently is forever, or do you want wider adoption of HD visual immersion? I am not delusional that everyone will go out and buy three displays tomorrow, but I do aim to significantly broaden the user base in the short-term for gaming, and massively broaden it among business users. It is my hope this sets up a "positive feedback loop" between business users and gaming users so that in the longer term HD immersion is common for a very large susbset of PC users. Yes, I know this will not happen overnight (and our implementing various features will not happen overnight either)..

You want me to be "right", because in the end that will get you more of what you want. If some of the posters here are correct, the market will never get much bigger, so we should focus the majority of our effort on the the way things are today. I suspect most of you really, really want that to be wrong. You'd really rather have HD immersion much more widely supported than it is today.

Let me put it another way. If we are wrong, the folks here lose nothing. You are no worse off then you were before. If you don't like EF's feature choices or market focus, you can always solve your problems the ways that you already use. However, I believe that repeating what is already done and making that incrementally better is likely to not change the situation much. I fully intend to change the situation a lot.

One last comment, there have been a few recent posts with a tone that I found offensive. C'mon folks - we aren't your enemies. :D

SunSp*t

One last comment, there have been a few recent posts with a tone that I found offensive. C'mon folks - we aren't your enemies. :D

SunSp*t

what ? you mean we don't get any XP for talking trash to you guys ? :roll: :wink:

[quote]One last comment, there have been a few recent posts with a tone that I found offensive. C'mon folks - we aren't your enemies. :D

SunSp*t

what ? you mean we don't get any XP for talking trash to you guys ? :roll: :wink:

Nope. Friendly fire is not tolerated. :lol:


Dave/Sunspot:
Is there any plans on making 5870+Samsung thin bezel screens packages/offers? Something that we see with 3D stereovision+Geforce cards? :)

Use of more than three or more displays is today non-standard - it is more-or-less custom. To make use of three or more displays widespread, some interesting things will have to be lost or addressed differently on the path to a useful but complete set of features. That useful complete subset will become the standard.

From what I can tell, EF does a couple of things which are going to have to be standard if HD immersion is going to take-off:

[list]Use DP as the primary display interface.
Use SLS, with any limitations it may have, for gaming.[/list:u]
Some folks will be unhappy with this, but you have to ask yourselves: do you want widescreen gaming to be the very small niche is currently is forever, or do you want wider adoption of HD visual immersion? I am not delusional that everyone will go out and buy three displays tomorrow, but I do aim to significantly broaden the user base in the short-term for gaming, and massively broaden it among business users. It is my hope this sets up a "positive feedback loop" between business users and gaming users so that in the longer term HD immersion is common for a very large susbset of PC users. Yes, I know this will not happen overnight (and our implementing various features will not happen overnight either)..

You want me to be "right", because in the end that will get you more of what you want. If some of the posters here are correct, the market will never get much bigger, so we should focus the majority of our effort on the the way things are today. I suspect most of you really, really want that to be wrong. You'd really rather have HD immersion much more widely supported than it is today.

Let me put it another way. If we are wrong, the folks here lose nothing. You are no worse off then you were before. If you don't like EF's feature choices or market focus, you can always solve your problems the ways that you already use. However, I believe that repeating what is already done and making that incrementally better is likely to not change the situation much. I fully intend to change the situation a lot.

One last comment, there have been a few recent posts with a tone that I found offensive. C'mon folks - we aren't your enemies. :D

SunSp*t

Yes I agree with what you are saying and for the long run, I also agree that this technology will enhance WSG for everyone.. It also holds the game creators to a new standard which is also exciting.. When I stand back and separate myself from my current solution and reflect on the overall good you are completely correct and I concur..

The fact is I just don't like the 3 24inch monitors personally (which is what I can afford and implement) compared to the big 30inch in the center and 2 side panels.. Regardless, it's a great breakthrough in which I may or may not embrace in the future.. The 30inch monitor is just really really cool thing to play games on...

Thanks for clarifying....

The fact is I just don't like the 3 24inch monitors personally (which is what I can afford and implement) compared to the big 30inch in the center and 2 side panels.. Regardless, it's a great breakthrough in which I may or may not embrace in the future.. The 30inch monitor is just really really cool thing to play games on...

Thanks for clarifying....

I agree. 30" center as main gaming screen and 20" satelites for added immersion is a pretty sweet setup. I've seen many in various forums using that setup and are limited to softTH because of this.

Also, adding the capabilities to use various screen sizes makes it easier for every user to try out Eyefinity, since the possibility to use old screens and borrow screens that might have a different size makes it cheaper. :)

With this, I think the adoption rate to Eyefinity would be larger. Even for those without any concrete plans of using Eyefinity yet, the wider selection of configurations makes the choice easier to at least buy a card with Eyefinity capabilities. :)

Dave/Sunspot:
Is there any plans on making 5870+Samsung thin bezel screens packages/offers? Something that we see with 3D stereovision+Geforce cards? :)

Bear in mind that Samsung are not in the market yet, we are however engaged with them in various activities... :)

On one of your earlier posts:

I have tons of questions I would have wanted to ask (other features then Eyefinity), but I don't want to spoil the oportunity we have here, so I don't ask.

Nobody minds questions, and we like to answer them if / when we can. Heck, if there really is a number of questions that many users want to ask then I'd suggest putting a "non-Eyefinity" Q/A sticky up, just so long as people understand that a.) We won't be able to answer everything b.) some may not like the answers that are given, c.) The questions do not become demands.

PS: Stop working already it's the weekend. :)

For those that aren't aware, prior to joining ATI/AMD I used to run the website Beyond3D in my spare time - I do this stuff because I love it it! :)