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Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 09:04
by kiselk
[quote]

thenjwaslike, The question is does this active adapter add any delay? I wanted to get 2 more 2443s but now I'm confused. My 2443 is able to do this, can all of yours do this or only two of them?



If the adapter is laggy then one of your monitors will become retarded, so a better option will be getting 3 adapters to get them all retarded with a single 5870 :) Or use 2 5870s and hook 2 and 1 displays at each. Or to wait for 5870x2 and hook up 3 DVI displays through 3 passive adapters?


i can check input tonight, what program is that? and do i setup all 3 monitors as clone and snap a picure? i have a 8mp canon, pretty quick shutter speed

its http://www.flatpanels.dk/monitortest_inputlag_dk.php
yeah, simply clone and take a shot. in perfect you should not see any difference between the numbers, but the input lag on the display itself varies from 0 to 20ms (my model at least) so you can see 20ms difference worst but if more than 30ms - converter fault and one of the monitor will always be showing a previous frame.

EDITED: actually i saw the geniv2's post but a bit leter after posting the first part. I'm glad there is no input lag!! I am supposed to find a reseller with a shipment to Russia lol.

EDITED2: Or wait till 5870x2 or 5870six appear with 6 ports and look if it is real to hook up 3 DVI with passive adapters.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 10:56
by ghallion
@Maypole

Thanks for posting and letting us know that you will ship to the rest of European countries. I am one of those that have sent you an email asking about it because I wasn't sure whether you would ship to Greece or not.

I was very disappointed with 5870 needing a monitor with a DP because I already have 3 exceptional monitors (Eizo 2441) and I don't intend to change them. The adapter is a viable solution to the problem alas noone seemed so sell it in Europe.

Thanks for posting to this forum and making our lives easier. I have already made my order.

@everyone

Has anyone confirmed, like geniv2 for the dell adapter, that the Accell adapter works without problems?

Also does anyone know if there is a way to buy the dell adapter in Europe ? (just in case...)

I would like to thank everyone for posting his experiences and helping making this forum the best source for making widescreen computing possible.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 15:08
by kiselk
There were posts of 5870x2 where it can be seen that 2 out of 6 mini-dp connectors look different to 4 others. It can be so that it is required 4passive DVI-DP and 2active DVI-DP connectors to get 6 displays working at once. And since 4 is greater than 3, there is a good chance of a triple setup working on 5870x2 or 5870six with only passive adapters. Who thinks different?



Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 17:58
by BHawthorne
There were posts of 5870x2 where it can be seen that 2 out of 6 mini-dp connectors look different to 4 others. It can be so that it is required 4passive DVI-DP and 2active DVI-DP connectors to get 6 displays working at once. And since 4 is greater than 3, there is a good chance of a triple setup working on 5870x2 or 5870six with only passive adapters. Who thinks different?


Since when did the 5870X2 have 6-ports? I think you're confused. Please link to pics of a 5870X2 with 6-ports as to not confuse matters. All 6 port cards are 5870, not 5870X2.

AMD has clearly said that the way the cards are designed can run internal timing for 2 dvi/hdmi ports only and everything else is timed externally for the DP ports by a 3rd clock that can't do dvi/hdmi.

To state yet again, AMD says on the 6-port cards -- the initial 2 ports can be passive dvi/hdmi adapters and the 4 other dvi/hdmi adapters have to be active.

Those pictures you are showing look to be Mini-DP to DP which has no signal issues as it's all DP signal. Those are all passive Mini-DP to DP connections. The passive/active issue is solely focused on DVI/HDMI connections and has zero to do with DP to DP.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 18:03
by BHawthorne
Has anyone confirmed, like geniv2 for the dell adapter, that the Accell adapter works without problems?


Dell = BizLink = Accell

It's an OEM product different companies have slapped their own logo on.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 18:33
by kiselk
[quote]There were posts of 5870x2 where it can be seen that 2 out of 6 mini-dp connectors look different to 4 others. It can be so that it is required 4passive DVI-DP and 2active DVI-DP connectors to get 6 displays working at once. And since 4 is greater than 3, there is a good chance of a triple setup working on 5870x2 or 5870six with only passive adapters. Who thinks different?


Since when did the 5870X2 have 6-ports? I think you're confused. Please link to pics of a 5870X2 with 6-ports as to not confuse matters.

AMD has clearly said that the way the cards are designed can run internal timing for 2 dvi/hdmi ports only and everything else is timed externally for the DP ports by a 3rd clock that can't do dvi/hdmi.

To state yet again, AMD says on the 6-port cards -- the initial 2 ports can be passive dvi/hdmi adapters and the 4 other dvi/hdmi adapters have to be active.

Those pictures you are showing look to be Mini-DP to DP which has no signal issues as it's all DP signal. Those are all passive Mini-DP to DP connections. The passive/active issue is solely focused on DVI/HDMI connections and has zero to do with DP to DP.

Oh, I am mistaken then, not 5870x2 but 5870six.
But even then, I was talking about some cables that are not miniDP-DP. You can clearly see at my shots that there are 2 of them on both of them. on first they are at number 1 and 2 from the right, on second 1 and 4 from top. I can admit 4 out of 6 are simple miniDP-DP but the other two are different. I just don't get why the hell they are not like all the others?

Talking about 5870x2 - no six monitors? really? It'll be quite dumb to render 6 screens on the lower model of the line and aim a smaller part of the market which needs those 24 screens with quad-fire rather then produce a high-fps X2 version of 6 screens.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 18:55
by BHawthorne
Oh, I am mistaken then, not 5870x2 but 5870six.
But even then, I was talking about some cables that are not miniDP-DP. You can clearly see at my shots that there are 2 of them on both of them. on first they are at number 1 and 2 from the right, on second 1 and 4 from top. I can admit 4 out of 6 are simple miniDP-DP but the other two are different. I just don't get why the hell they are not like all the others?

Talking about 5870x2 - no six monitors? really? It'll be quite dumb to render 6 screens on the lower model of the line and aim a smaller part of the market which needs those 24 screens with quad-fire rather then produce a high-fps X2 version of 6 screens.


There is probably no reason why they did that other than they had 2 mini-dp to dp/dvi/hdmi/whatever cables sitting around. Remember, 2 ports can run whatever passive.

Again, you're way confused. EyeFinity can only do up to 6 displays, no card spanning. That 24 screen example is NOT a single game -- it's 4 instances of X-Plane running in Linux. EyeFinity is currently NO CrossFire and NO multi-card and NO multi-GPU. You got confused by a marketing bait and switch with the 24 display example. A single EyeFinity SLS defined area is incapable of any more than 6 displays in Windows using 1 card that has 1 GPU on it. There are very specific limitations to this tech and as long as you do things within those limitations, you can run up to 6 screens in 3D fullscreen mode.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 22:25
by kiselk
[quote]Oh, I am mistaken then, not 5870x2 but 5870six.
But even then, I was talking about some cables that are not miniDP-DP. You can clearly see at my shots that there are 2 of them on both of them. on first they are at number 1 and 2 from the right, on second 1 and 4 from top. I can admit 4 out of 6 are simple miniDP-DP but the other two are different. I just don't get why the hell they are not like all the others?

Talking about 5870x2 - no six monitors? really? It'll be quite dumb to render 6 screens on the lower model of the line and aim a smaller part of the market which needs those 24 screens with quad-fire rather then produce a high-fps X2 version of 6 screens.


There is probably no reason why they did that other than they had 2 mini-dp to dp/dvi/hdmi/whatever cables sitting around. Remember, 2 ports can run whatever passive.

Again, you're way confused. EyeFinity can only do up to 6 displays, no card spanning. That 24 screen example is NOT a single game -- it's 4 instances of X-Plane running in Linux. EyeFinity is currently NO CrossFire and NO multi-card and NO multi-GPU. You got confused by a marketing bait and switch with the 24 display example. A single EyeFinity SLS defined area is incapable of any more than 6 displays in Windows using 1 card that has 1 GPU on it. There are very specific limitations to this tech and as long as you do things within those limitations, you can run up to 6 screens in 3D fullscreen mode.

And now you get me even more confused. How come x2 is going to support eyefinity if you say there is no multi-gpu support? isn't 5870x2 multi-GPU? Crossfire - yes, i agree, there was such a kind of information, but what the hell they are doing 5870six for? for 5760x2400 windows desktop? I was planning to get 5870x2 just because I will be suffering with my current 4870x2 @5760x1200 and they offer their customers just the same torture with 5870six? 15fps? with no way to extend the power? and what if I want to plug in 4th display with 5870x2 aboard? I am mad about ATI they do nice things but in such a way they'd better did nothing.

I am still glad I have an option to get 3x2443BW working with 5870x2 via single bizlink, but the more I dig into the reviews the more I get disappointed by the limitations ATI makes. Its all about money, all about getting more money from the customers. They do not think about our pleasure or usability. All they do can be treated like a dated plan to conquer the market step by step, making the customers mistaken with their choice, buying thing they dont need and buying things they will have to buy even if they dont like it. It makes me sick. I think even the anti-monopoly sucks when it comes to the game which two greedy leading manufacturers play coop against the market ppl. My paranoia thinks ATI and nVidia are friends behind our backs and the next step nVidia will do is producing "x2" brother with the support of up-to 6 monitors just whats ATI missing "by accident"!!!

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 01 Oct 2009, 22:30
by Mach1.9pants
There is not multi-GPU support yet. ATi is working on it, I reckon they'll get it up and running before the x2 is released, but that is just a guess.

could proper bezel management lead to mixed resolutions?

Posted: 02 Oct 2009, 16:33
by ChainSOV
[quote]I have been reading all the applicable threads concerning Eyefinity and I have even purchased the Dell adapter but I am at a crossroads.. I haven't bought the 5870 for 1 reason, I currently own a Dell 3007WFP-HC 30 inch and 2X 2007FP..

I have been reading and understand that currently 20inch port/30inch land/20inch port is not supported by Eyefinity.. It seems this would be a software/driver related issue because all the monitors have the same 1200 vertical resoultion..

My question is this:

Will Eyefinity iron this out in future driver releases? Can we expect to run Portrait + Landscape + Portrait / 20" + 30" + 20" display configurations in the future? Mainly a questioon for Dave but any feedback or input would be appreciated....


I think you meant the three would have a vertical height of 1600 res ? :)

I am in the same boat as you, I have the Apple 30" Display, and would love to keep it, and just add two 20 flipped up in Portrait next to either side of my 30". It seems like an easy thing for Eyefinity to do, mainly because all three would have the exact same vertical height of 1600 resolution, so why not allow that to work ?

I could imagine, that if the bezel feature will be implemented by rendering a larger screen and cutting it off, the drivers will be just a step away from mixed resolutions and 2 steps away from mixed orientation displays.

Just think of it

with a 1920x1200 in the middle and two 1600x1200 4:3 displays on the sides a 1920x1200 image could be rendered on the sidescreens, cut off on the bezel side to compensate for the bezel and cut off on the other side for the smaller horizontal rezolution.

It would be a stupid waste of rendering power, but it would give more options for ppl who already have 4:3's or are concerned about deskspace, and maybe it can be optimized so there is not so much overrendering.


with 2560x1600 + two 1200x1600 in portrait mode it could be done similarly. but the overrendering would get ludicrous. 2560x1600 cropped to 1200x1600 and then rotated.

that is if the driver is inflexible enough that it only works with same rendering resolution for every display, but even then completely mixed setups without matching horizontal / vertical setups could be handled in a similar way by overrendering and cropping.

An intelligent solution would just give the game a resolution of all displays combined (5120x1200 example1, 4960x1600 example2), maybe overrender a little for the bezels. Sounds doable, the question is if ATI has the resources for such a niche feature.


In a perfect world the upcoming ATI bezel management feature would also implement
+ clockwise/ccw rotation of displays(mixed orientation)
+ zoom/scaling, to compensate for different pixel density displays(imagine a 22" and two 20" all running 1680x1050)
+ transition (imagine a big screen in the middle and two small on the sides with smaller vertical resolution, relative positioning is needed for proper bottom/top/middle alignment)


Its a shame, misleading and unintuitive that the new series has only 2 clock generators.

I am holding onto my TH2Go for now, there is no way I would buy 2 expensive active adapters just to get my old 3 dvi displays + a hdmi hdtv running, not to mention that I would need to get the 6port card for that despite the smaller card having 4 ports.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 02 Oct 2009, 18:04
by geniv2
why would u need TWO active adapter?

I know u need DVI + DVI + DP for triple monitor

u can use one active adapter on the DP port
and if u want to use HDMI just get a $5 DVI-> HDMI adapter.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 02 Oct 2009, 19:29
by BHawthorne
why would u need TWO active adapter?

I know u need DVI + DVI + DP for triple monitor

u can use one active adapter on the DP port
and if u want to use HDMI just get a $5 DVI-> HDMI adapter.


Agreed. Only ports that need active adapters are DP based.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 03 Oct 2009, 13:34
by ChainSOV
because with 2 clock generators you cant drive 2 dvi + 1 hdmi outputs simultaneously, this would require 3 clock generators, at least thats how I understood the information in this thread.

So to hook up 3 dvi + 1 hdmi displays you need 2 active adapters, and a 6port card, because you have to connect 2 of the displays to dp.

I guess it can be done on a single card only by disabling one of the dvi displays and enable the hdmi hdtv to watch movies, and switching back when you are done, or having a second gfx card drive the hdmi hdtv, but I rather stay with my trusty TH2Go with which I can drive the combo off a single card hassle-free.

Maybe by the next generation ATI will have more clock generators, or display link lcds will be more common and affordable, I just wait and see.

To kiselk

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 10:50
by SunSp*t

... the more I get disappointed by the limitations ATI makes. Its all about money, all about getting more money from the customers. They do not think about our pleasure or usability. All they do [is] conquer the market step by step, making the customers mistaken with their choice, buying thing they dont need and buying things they will have to buy even if they dont like it. It makes me sick.


Well to be honest, I didn't think about your pleasure or usability when creating Eyefinity(EF). Really I didn't. I did think a lot about my pleasure and the fun that the gamers that I play with every day could have with something like this. I didn't think much about conquering the market step by step or making money (although that would be nice), but I did think about how much fun it would be to be immersed in the games I play. Since I happen to be one of the creators of Eyefinity (EF), and made the decision to put EF into our products, I happen to know exactly what was done and why it was done.


... but what the hell they are doing 5870six for?


There will be a six output card because we built most of the chips to support up to six outputs. If you want to know why, go to http://solidmercury.blogspot.com/. It would have been done sooner, but we don't have infinite engineers. We had to make a choice about which card to do first. I wanted to do the six output card (let's call that the "Six") first, but there were a few concerns:

First, almost everyone has older monitor technology (e.g. DVI). The six output card requires mini-DP. Building the Six first would have required everyone to buy new monitors or wait until the Three (5870) was done. Either way seemed less fair to the folks who would want this capability. Just imagine the complaints if the first card was the Six.
Second, the Six will cost more than the Three for a number of reasons I will not elaborate on. And six new monitors will cost more than one new DP monitor, or a DP-to-DVI adapter so you can use your older DVI monitors. For cost reasons we thought more folks would want to play around with EF using three monitors rather than six.
Third, the population of folks who have space for three monitors is larger than those who have room for six monitors. Our Sweet Spot Strategy (another thing I was the creator of) says that we want to support more gamers early in the product generation, rather than waiting for the goodness to waterfall from the extreme enthusiast space down to a broader base of users. Frankly I want to play games with a bunch of folks having fun with this, not feed the egos of small group who can afford the $$ and space to build a Six system.
Fourth, the Six is more complicated than the Three. It takes more time to bring the Six to market than the Three.
Fifth, EF was quite risky - it wasn't clear when this was started two-to-three years ago that EF would get a good market reception. Even two months ago it wasn't clear. Doing the Six first would have been incredibly risky.

So we decided to do the Three first. As for being able to use Crossfire (CF) with EF, it is AMD's intention to offer that capability as soon as possible. There is no evilness, no plot for world domination in this at all, just the cold hard facts of doing engineering. We wanted to have CF at launch, but we discovered that the engineering work to make EF happen was substantially more than was originally estimated. We are still working on CF EF today. We had enough engineering (barely) to make EF without CF happen for launch. If you want to wait for the Six, no-one is forcing you to buy the Three right now today. If you want to wait for CF to be working, again no-one is forcing you to buy anything right now. We are doing the best we can as fast as we can.


...I am mad about ATI they do nice things but in such a way they'd better did nothing.


Really? You'd really rather we did nothing? I suppose we could have withheld EF and launched the product without it, turning it on later when we had CF also working with EF. But if you bought any new graphics product or new monitor between the time of launch and the time of EF enablement, you would have been supremely angry at AMD for not letting you know what your choices could have been and how you could have spent your money.

I suppose we could have made it easier to use three old-tech DVI monitors, but that would have raised the costs for everyone, regardless of whether they used EF or not. Those extra timing sources cost money. What we did was more-or-less free (well, not really, but low enough that we decided to take the risk).

Instead of doing nothing, we gave all of you an interesting new feature to play with, for free really, because the sales price of 5870 wouldn't have been $1 different for not having EF. We have disclosed what EF in the current cards can and cannot do. We made it possible for you to use your old monitors. We have told you other cards will be forthcoming, and roughly what those cards will do (more we can't say for legal reasons). Everything we have done is to offer you the opportunity to make informed choices.

No-one is forcing anyone to buy our product. Anyone who thinks we should have done nothing should spend their money elsewhere. The few thousand engineers and marketing people who built the product so far, and who are still working on the product, do this as much for the enjoyment folks get from using our product as anything else. We are very talented people who can all go get a good paycheck somewhere else. Do you really mean to insult us all with the inference of your email? As for being in cahoots with nV, that is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve a response.

P.S. SunSp*t was my original name for EF. Out of sentimental reasons I have adopted it for my own username.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 11:31
by Abram
That's one hell of a first post, Sunshine.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 11:46
by DaFox
WOW! I really hope that you stay around and shed some more light on EF for us SunSp*t! Great read.

Re: To kiselk

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 12:21
by flopper
Since I happen to be one of the creators of Eyefinity (EF), and made the decision to put EF into our products, I happen to know exactly what was done and why it was done.


Instead of doing nothing, we gave all of you an interesting new feature to play with, for free really, because the sales price of 5870 wouldn't have been $1 different for not having EF. We have disclosed what EF in the current cards can and cannot do. We made it possible for you to use your old monitors. We have told you other cards will be forthcoming, and roughly what those cards will do (more we can't say for legal reasons). Everything we have done is to offer you the opportunity to make informed choices.



P.S. SunSp*t was my original name for EF. Out of sentimental reasons I have adopted it for my own username.


I was suprised, delighted and happy with the Eyefinity rumour and when announced, it will add for me the gaming choice for the current screens.
Today screens with DP we got 24inches, and the price is sky high.

I can get 3 screens (TN Panel tho) with adapter for the same price or even lower as one DELL U2410 isp screen. (not that expensive really)

So, I been reading and think about what I would enjoy with my gaming, and tripple screens, is just such tempting thing, and maybe I will enjoy those car drive racing games then.
I am going eyefinity as it makes sense for me, using dvi panel screens with adapter, and one day when the manufactures add DP to screens they make and also make those bezels even thinner and maybe some will make removeable ones, then I get a card with DP for all outputs but that is way off in the future.

It seems some might complain due to them, wanting the eyefinity, but cant either afford it with all the screens or they belive it would all be handly served to them perfectly, with all 3 dvi inputs.
I would have liked that, obviously, as todays tech is dvi, however I also note that DP is a better option for the future dosnt mean I must like the choice made from the engineers but I also can understand the route going there.

I am delighted to have the option to buy a 5850 (I did, its in mail) and then when I can afford getting 3 screens to run without needing to buy any extra add on tech.(Matrox)
I waited since december to get this generation and the eyefinity was alone worth the wait, thx for that feature.

However, the communciation from ati, wasnt clear, proven by this forum, about eyefinity, requirements or not requirements, people seldom read posted one line information as it didnt explain options.
Good engineering, bad PR/communication.

Still as it stands, nice tech and cudos for bringing it out.
Just fix the crossfire with eyefinity and it be fun to go.

Edit: I also forsee, that ati now also open up 3 screen gaming for the mainstream, this will change the market for people making screens as they now have a new market to sell 3 screens instead of just one!
I cant belive no one have 3 screens DP ready at 22inch 1920x1080 and up for this feature at launch?
If samsung would have they be selling tons of screens...

Re: To kiselk

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 14:47
by Dave Baumann
However, the communciation from ati, wasnt clear, proven by this forum, about eyefinity, requirements or not requirements, people seldom read posted one line information as it didnt explain options.
Good engineering, bad PR/communication.

The requirements for Eyefinity were full disclosed to all press prior to the launch with an entire slide deck dedicated to technology, capabilities, ecosystem and requirements. Reviewers picked that up from the off, for instance:

The ability to move your PC gaming from a modest single 22-in or 24-in panel to a 3x1 configuration of monitors is a great addition to the expanding PC gaming technological advantages. The only negative drawback is that at least one of your displays will have to support the new DisplayPort connection, and those are limited right now. Both Dell and HP offer some models today (like the Dell 2408WFP or HP LP2275w) but those should be expanding into more brands and lower prices in the not too distant future.


The Eyefinity landing page has been up from day one of the launch and that also states that DisplayPort is required for the 3'rd display on the current boards. The Eyefinity Technical Brief has also been posted and that talks about the requirements in a little more detail. Obviously there is a lot more that can be discussed about with Eyefinity and I expect to see content on this topic increase over the various AMD portals as time goes on.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 15:08
by Samiad
I gotta agree with this, it was mentioned just about everywhere that a displayport monitor was required.

I think most people (myself included) just assumed that an adaptor would work, and the fault in that assumtion is squarely on our shoulders alone.

Displayport-compatible screens needed for Eyefinity?

Posted: 04 Oct 2009, 15:20
by Paradigm Shifter
I think most people (myself included) just assumed that an adaptor would work, and the fault in that assumtion is squarely on our shoulders alone.

This.

Importantly, an adaptor does work. An active adaptor.

However, the assumption most of us made was that it was likely possible to get it working with a passive adaptor.

It's now that a line from Under Siege 2 (no matter how bad a movie it was in other ways) springs to mind: "Assumption is the mother of all... [you-know-whats]." ;)