System build - recommend me the details.

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 30 Sep 2009, 18:01

OK, fair enough. :)

Post by **Gilly** » 01 Oct 2009, 14:24

No import duty in the EU, you only pay VAT once (moms, VAT whatever it is in other countries) also

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 01 Oct 2009, 21:30

Home Premium would cost half as much if I simply got it OEM.

I would reconsider that. I am on XP Home OEM and the not being able to upgrade major system components without MS calling it non transferable to another "system" is a pain in the arse.

X-Warrior · Post by **X-Warrior** » 01 Oct 2009, 21:34

And there we go, Intel 80GB SSD dropped another €10 to €189 today. It was still at €230 at the start of September. Seems to be dropping regularly:
http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Solid_State_Disk_2,5_inch_SATA/Intel(R)/SSDSA2MH080G2C1/-1080051/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Harddisks+%2F+SSD&l2=SSD&l3=SATA
(copy/paste that link, it has brackets which the forum thinks ends links), click on 'Prijsverloop' to see a graph for the price changes last month. Going like mad I say.
Will definately be interesting to keep an eye on this.

edit:

I would reconsider that. I am on XP Home OEM and the not being able to upgrade major system components without MS calling it non transferable to another "system" is a pain in the arse.

As far as I know, it's tied to the motherboard, unless it's replaced because it broke. New MoBo I'd only get with a new system anyway most likely.
Unless they changed their point of view on this of course. Do recent Windows versions still have the activation thing then? Thought they'd done away with that in Vista already?

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 01 Oct 2009, 21:59

As far as I know, it's tied to the motherboard, unless it's replaced because it broke. New MoBo I'd only get with a new system anyway most likely.
Unless they changed their point of view on this of course. Do recent Windows versions still have the activation thing then? Thought they'd done away with that in Vista already?

Yeah it's mainly the MB, though I'm not sure they'd allow a CPU swap either the way they're getting. Count on making the call to get a new OS key with ANY of their OEM OSes when formatting. I've had to do it several times and once had one of their supervisors say I need to contact the PC manufacturer all because she assumed my OEM version was a branded vs generic one (Dell, HP, etc).

Also, last I checked, and this was in asking a MS CS rep on the phone, they don't consider MB RMAs a valid excuse. I told her I though t it was a ridiculous policy and she didn't sympathize at all.

What's weird is you can sometimes get an average CS person to willingly give you a new OS key, even though their sup had just told me I can't, and he even gave out two or 3 XP Pro OS keys, yet their sups act like you're the enemy instead of a customer. So bottom line, don't count on too much from MS unless you kiss their behinds and buy a retail version.

Honestly though, I fail to see why with some parts it's as if you have a money is no object mindset, even insisting on a mid size SSD, yet on other things you're scrimping on price.

My feeling about SSDs is they're still too finicky and pricey to warrant getting anything bigger than just a drive big enough for the OS itself to keep it running fast and simplify formats. Unless you have lots to spend on the 128GB size, which use faster Nand. IMO it's not very beneficial to have something slightly bigger than OS size unless you want to be constantly installing and uninstalling a few games on it just so they can load levels faster.

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 02 Oct 2009, 11:49

I have never had a problem with calling MS up when I've had a catastrophic failure of Windows with OEM licenses. A bored sounding person asks, "Why are you reinstalling?" Reply with: "Virus/Mobo died/installed-new-network-card/hard-drive-and-Windows-wanted-reactivating" and the bored voice reels off a long activation key which is duly typed in and works fine.

X-Warrior · Post by **X-Warrior** » 02 Oct 2009, 18:28

Brings back memories of my activations...
WinXP - full MoBo replacement, because I broke the previous one while cleaning. I started Windows (no reinstall, no problems), and all was well. The expected activation didn't come. Mind you, it was nearly the same board, just another brand (Asus instead of MSI).
When I changed some harddisk configuration in the BIOS, Windows required me to reactivate :roll: Not sure if this was right after, or another PC altogether...

Honestly though, I fail to see why with some parts it's as if you have a money is no object mindset, even insisting on a mid size SSD, yet on other things you're scrimping on price.

Money is an issue when I don't actually get anything from paying more, i.e. Win7 Ultimate vs. Home Premium. Of course Ultimate does have more, but will I actually be using any of those features, other than bragging rights? Still not convinced about that bit. Hence the choice for a 'lower' version. I don't expect any serious system changes for quite some time, so OEM shouldn't be an issue.
SSDs are expensive, but from what I've read so far, well worth it. Therefore I'm willing to pay the price. Want really expensive? Try one of these ;). Now that's true madness I say.

On another note, this Noctua cooler. It looks rather big. Will there be any issues with physically fitting the thing in an Element S case?
My current case I have some big Zalman, and it's a tight fit due to the side panel coolers. (As in: they actually touch eachother, I have to press a bit to close the case.)

packerfan · Post by **packerfan** » 02 Oct 2009, 21:19

Just straight up OEM reinstalls I have never had an issue, with, I have reinstalled XP 3-4 times on my old Dell and now a new CD on my Macbook Pro and not an issue once. I forget what I bound the key to since I think it chose two parts gave me serials, I think choices were CPU and HDD so obviously I chose the former since it isn't upgradable.

Post by **Gilly** » 02 Oct 2009, 22:09

OEM installs are tied to the case of the PC.

thats where the sticker that comes with is it meant to be stuck.

if you take their rules literally

X-Warrior · Post by **X-Warrior** » 02 Oct 2009, 23:43

Stickers?

:roll:

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 02 Oct 2009, 23:57

OEM installs are tied to the case of the PC.

thats where the sticker that comes with is it meant to be stuck.

if you take their rules literally

That's primarily OEM builds like Dell, HP, etc, and it's mainly to avoid the possibility of the customer misplacing or tossing the OS key, which is on a label on the disc package. Nothing like crawling under your desk just to read the CD key when formatting.

It doesn't mean your OS is "tied to the case". Any reputable custom PC build shop will leave the sticker on the disc package if you want, and a lot of them prefer to do it that way to make formats easier for the customer.

packerfan · Post by **packerfan** » 03 Oct 2009, 01:43

Yea my sticker is stuck to the package (havent tried peeling it off).

So I guess I should stuff my mbp in an envelope ;)

They tie to the hardware somehow.

phantom · Post by **phantom** » 03 Oct 2009, 09:01

On another note, this Noctua cooler. It looks rather big. Will there be any issues with physically fitting the thing in an Element S case?
My current case I have some big Zalman, and it's a tight fit due to the side panel coolers. (As in: they actually touch eachother, I have to press a bit to close the case.)

If you need actual numbers I can measure the inside of my case. Let me know.

Post by **Gilly** » 03 Oct 2009, 10:43

when you get an OEM version of the software, which is what i assume most people do you are meant to fix the sticker with the CD key to the case. therefore the key is "tied" to the case. In theory the product activation where if you add a hard drive it should flag up and make you re-activate is too big brother ish.

im real terms, i have 2 copies of XP both 100% legit OEM ones, the sticker is on the CD case, and i have had no problems installing XP on 4 completely different hardware configurations for myself. (2700+ athlon, 2600+ barton, 3200+ Winchester, E8400 and a P4 system where it runs now)

X-Warrior · Post by **X-Warrior** » 03 Oct 2009, 10:56

Thanks for that phantom.

Apparently the Element S is 230mm wide.
The dimensions of the Noctua are:
Cooler 120 x 120 x 25 mm
Heatsink 126 x 158 x 71 mm
Total 126 x 158 x 126 mm

So I need 158mm available width inside the case. The outer width is apparently 230mm, but a lot of that is taken by the case itself, the MoBo and the side fan. If you could measure whether there's 160mm or more left between the processor and the side fan, that would be great :)

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 03 Oct 2009, 20:54

Go to the Thermaltake forum. There's a thread there in which someone stated the actual CPU HS clearance on an Element S. It's on the Chassis board. And you better hope for more like 160mm clearance, you don't want that thing even slightly touching the case panel. :wink:

One thing I don't get about the Element S is they ever so slightly slanted the backs of the side panels inward, apparently to make the mesh vents on them facilitate a more front to back flow. IMO it is too much of a detriment to CPU HS and cable storage space.

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 03 Oct 2009, 21:45

I'd certainly hope that the mobo tray, side panels and mobo mounting standoffs didn't add up to 7cm...!

X-Warrior · Post by **X-Warrior** » 03 Oct 2009, 22:22

Thanks for that Frag Maniac.
Found the thread, and here's what it says:

Q: What is the tallest cooler that will fit this chassis?
A: This chassis will fit a cooler that is no taller than 163mm(6.4")

Q: What is the longest graphics card that may be used with this chassis?
A: This chassis will fit a video card that is no longer than 10.5".

this is hand measured by me in our lab. If you use a card over 10.5" you will have to remove the HDD cage.

the height of cooler is the actual height of cooler that can be installed.

Made me happy. Then I read his next post...

as for the side fan,
It will reduce cooler height by about 25cm.
max cooler in non side fan is 163mm or 6.5".
in the fan model chassis it is around 138mm.

And I'm like: Huh? That doesn't leave a lot of room for a proper cooler, now does it? Maybe I'll have to settle for the €10 cheaper non-sidefan version.

I think I'll just go search that forum for more info on this...

Frag Maniac · Post by **Frag Maniac** » 04 Oct 2009, 00:37

And I'm like: Huh? That doesn't leave a lot of room for a proper cooler, now does it? Maybe I'll have to settle for the €10 cheaper non-sidefan version.

I think I'll just go search that forum for more info on this...

Don't even worry about the "G" version of the Element. It's ironic that the G stands for gaming, as it gives you far less CPU HS room than the "S" (studio) model supposedly made for video editing pros and such.

Thermaltake's answer to this, the case has plenty of cooling without using a CPU HS. Serious OCers were like, yeah right. :roll:

I call the G version the discotheque version, because in reality, the only gaming specific feature they added was the tri colored LED lights on the fans that run in a variety of modes, one of which has them all blinking in rotating colors, like THAT"S a big help for your gaming needs. I can see gamers pausing to "Do the Hustle" with all that going on. :roll:

The S model was the one first introduced in the US, the G model more specific to the UK/Europe as far as I know. Don't be confused into thinking it's the better way to go. Somehow the US got the more practical case upon the Element's debut here, I don't know why. God knows what lurks in the minds of public relations employees sometimes.

Both regions should have availability for each model by now. You may want to wait a month or two if you can though. Newegg was blowing out the Element S pretty cheap recently here in the states, though I don't know if your area would have such deals.

X-Warrior · Post by **X-Warrior** » 05 Oct 2009, 21:24

Yeah, I think the non-sidefan S will suffice. I have a special spot on my desk for a tower, which is used by a cd rack at the moment, because my XaserIII doesn't fit (too high). The Element S should be significantly smaller, allowing me to put it there instead of on the floor. That'll have some advantages. The left side (looking from the front) will then be blocked by the desk, so trouble might arise for a side fan anyway. Might be for the best not to have one of those things I reckon. Plus, cooling should be plenty with the big front, top and back fans, and a big fat Noctua inside.

I might be in the market for alternative cases, if there's anything good about. What about Lian Li for example? They worth it? I heard good things about them quite a while ago. Prices seem to start just about where Thermaltake ends though, except for the extreme TT cases. Any specific models that would be worth looking into?

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