Widescreen Gaming Forum

I didn't really want this to turn into a piracy thread... but I guess that was unavoidable. Any discussion of DRM invariably descends into a back and forth about piracy. :(

Its physically impossible to not discuss piracy when talking about DRM. DRM is only there to fight piracy (which lately, it does not do a very good job of might I add)

Its physically impossible to not discuss piracy when talking about DRM. DRM is only there to fight piracy (which lately, it does not do a very good job of might I add)

I am aware that DRM is a direct result of piracy. However, a discussion about DRM does not have to always turn into a flam^H^H^H^H... debate about the moral rights, wrongs, why one person does pirate, why another thinks they're all dirty filthy scum, yadda yadda ad infinitum. ;)

I was curious about how the game sold in stores with all this discussion about DRM, so I checked the 4 online shops I use. Sold Out, in every single one.
That's kind of impressive, usually only limited editions and such sells this fast.
Sorry, this was a bit off-topic, I'll leave now :oops:

If you're talking about Spore, then that's entirely on-topic. Considering the absurd hype of the game, the Will Wright brand, the next big game after The Sims!, I'm not surprised that it's selling big and fast. Hopefully that will multiply the number of cranky customer phone calls to EA when folks find out "Hey, I can only install this game 3 times then I have to buy it again!".

All this thread did was remind me about how long the grass on my lawn is.

:lol: :lol:

I'm sure some would argue otherwise. But I'll bow to your greater knowledge on this matter.

I've followed the results of a few court cases (in the US), and yeah, EULAs are basically just lawyers stoking their self-importance. The fact that EULAs are only accessible AFTER you purchase the game kinda invalidates any 'contractual' obligations it might portend, and like cranky said, consumers have irrevocable rights.

I've followed the results of a few court cases (in the US), and yeah, EULAs are basically just lawyers stoking their self-importance. The fact that EULAs are only accessible AFTER you purchase the game kinda invalidates any 'contractual' obligations it might portend, and like cranky said, consumers have irrevocable rights.

OK, cool. I don't know of any 'testing' of EULAs like that in the UK/EU and really don't have the energy to go hunting right now. ;)

If I were rich, I wouldn't be sitting here stating I can download the latest games. But honestly I have no money.

That's what jobs are for. Getting money.

Lets say you agree to mow the grass. Should he pay me upfront?

If that's what the agreement is, then absolutely. And that's what the agreement is with games. If it were the other way around and gamers could avoid paying for a game just by claiming they were not satisfied with it, devs would stop making games.

If I were rich, I wouldn't be sitting here stating I can download the latest games. But honestly I have no money.

That's what jobs are for. Getting money.

Lets say you agree to mow the grass. Should he pay me upfront?

If that's what the agreement is, then absolutely. And that's what the agreement is with games. If it were the other way around and gamers could avoid paying for a game just by claiming they were not satisfied with it, devs would stop making games.

Cranky, I currently work fulltime, at a hourly wage and go to school fulltime.

Still, I'm trying to avoid debt though college. I got two more years and honestly, I'm in debt. Pardon me for not throwing away money on games I install, play for 2 hours, and then never finish. Its equivant of a demo without the demo bs.

Cranky, I currently work fulltime, at a hourly wage

In that case, that's what good budgeting is for. Good budgeting means knowing what counts as basic expenses, what doesn't, and having spare change left over from your income after basic expenses are done which can be spent on things like games. I had to work through school too. A lot of people do. This doesn't make it OK to freeload digital entertainment.

Pardon me for not throwing away money on games I install, play for 2 hours, and then never finish.

If they're so worthless then don't play them! Playing games isn't your birthright, and having the attitude that you're entitled to everything you want is both worlds of wrong and depressingly common lately.

Its equivant of a demo without the demo bs.

I have no idea what you mean by "demo BS," but whatever it is, is it worse to put up with it than paying retail price? If not, then it sure sounds like playing demos is the right way to go.

I stole ALL my games a few years ago when i made min. wage. all my savings went to my rig.

Most game demos, if there's one at all, are far too crippled to tell you if you'll really like a game.

I've just finished a demo for space rangers 2, total available demo playtime: 20 minutes.

Other games work fine in demo like Chaos Legion which I played and replayed the demo for some time till I borrowed the game from someone I know (beats me where he got it, I never found it myself). And in the end, it was good that I never did find it to buy. The demo was fun, the real game was repetitive overly 'challenging'/hard crap.

And while I can afford 50-60$ a game. I never will pay that. It's simply not worth it especially since replayability these days is grinding the same things over and over again. That's not replaying a game, that's artificial inflation of marketing numbers.

Example, a game like dungeon siege has well over 100 hours of play, and that's keeping mostly to the main quest.

All the GTAs (except the 4th, haven't played that one) have a long play time too. And in both cases the length makes up for the lack of replayability since what's left is collecting things.

Now more recently you have games that cost easily twice as those yet barely give you a nights play time and 0 replay.

I don't care if you say your game cost multi-zillion dollars to make, if you spent less time on flash and more on content it might last long enough to be worth 60$.

As for 'wait till it goes down', provided it's even available to begin with, it's unlikely to reach the bargain bin / lower price, it's cleared off the shelves entirely for the next uber-expensive AAA title before you get a chance to buy it.

Cranky, I currently work fulltime, at a hourly wage

In that case, that's what good budgeting is for. Good budgeting means knowing what counts as basic expenses, what doesn't, and having spare change left over from your income after basic expenses are done which can be spent on things like games. I had to work through school too. A lot of people do. This doesn't make it OK to freeload digital entertainment.

You reminded me of 90% of the people in my community with that statement.

so, does anybody know what the deal with red alert 3 is gonna be? it's not going to be 3 installs is it?

so, does anybody know what the deal with red alert 3 is gonna be? it's not going to be 3 installs is it?

First link on google.

Lots of details. But to answer your second question, you get to install RA3 five times before you must beg EA customer service for permission to use your product.

-EDIT-
Wow. This one is rich:
Ars puts Spore DRM to the test

Normally I find Ars articles to be cogent, but this one is almost laughable.

With installing the game four times between two machines, and still no issues,

By this point in the article, they had already been forced to call customer service twice, and for a certain period of time, the game was entirely non-functional because the DRM servers were down. How is that not an issue?

Finale:

In this case, customer service wins, and we left wondering if the DRM controversy might be more philosophical in nature than rooted in any real-world inconveniences.

[excessive grumpiness removed] You had to call customer service 3 times over 7 installs! That's pushing real hard on a 50% FAIL RATE. Call me old-fashioned, but having to repeatedly ASK PERMISSION to use a product I have PAID FOR is a pretty significant inconvenience.

I liked the way one reader responded:

Personally I feel like EA have dropped a bar of soap in front of me in the shower. Do I dare bend down and pick it up knowing what they are doing to me? I think not.

-EDIT2-
The DRM backlash for Crysis Warhead is already rolling like a freight train. 23 pages in one day.

Most game demos, if there's one at all, are far too crippled to tell you if you'll really like a game.

I've just finished a demo for space rangers 2, total available demo playtime: 20 minutes.

Last demo I played that gave me a good idea of what the actual game was going to be like was Deus Ex. Which came out in... what... 2000? Every other demo I've tried since has either been criminally short (to the point of not even being able to get a feel for the game) or performed either better than the full game, or worse. The first annoys me when I get the full game and suddenly it runs like pants, and the second puts me off buying the full game in the first place.

I don't care if you say your game cost multi-zillion dollars to make, if you spent less time on flash and more on content it might last long enough to be worth 60$.

Graphics triumphing over gameplay there, I'm afraid. ;) I'm not saying make the games ugly... just spend less $$$ on the graphics, and more on the story. ;)

As for 'wait till it goes down', provided it's even available to begin with, it's unlikely to reach the bargain bin / lower price, it's cleared off the shelves entirely for the next uber-expensive AAA title before you get a chance to buy it.

Yes. This annoys me a lot. There are a lot of PS2 games I've bought over the last couple of years on launch day that I've not even played... but I've bought them precisely because I know that they're 'niche' products, and that by the time they go down in price I won't be able to find them for love nor money. The Shin Megami Tensei games are the greatest example there. Games used to get cheaper. Now, instead, they just vanish completely. If you're lucky, a while later they might appear in a collection with nine other POS games I don't want, or on a budget label. But not very often.

Graphics triumphing over gameplay there, I'm afraid. ;) I'm not saying make the games ugly... just spend less $$$ on the graphics, and more on the story. ;)

Or spend more money on both and make a kick ass game. (HL2 im looking at you! :cheers)

Cranky, I currently work fulltime, at a hourly wage

In that case, that's what good budgeting is for. Good budgeting means knowing what counts as basic expenses, what doesn't, and having spare change left over from your income after basic expenses are done which can be spent on things like games. I had to work through school too. A lot of people do. This doesn't make it OK to freeload digital entertainment.

So...now your attacking my budgeting. Thanks Cranky.

I'm out of this conversation, mostly because you've pissed me off.

Good to know you budget alot for games. I simply do not have that luxury. And there is no need to attack my personal finances in a forum discussing DRM.

[quote]

Cranky, I currently work fulltime, at a hourly wage

In that case, that's what good budgeting is for. Good budgeting means knowing what counts as basic expenses, what doesn't, and having spare change left over from your income after basic expenses are done which can be spent on things like games. I had to work through school too. A lot of people do. This doesn't make it OK to freeload digital entertainment.

So...now your attacking my budgeting. Thanks Cranky.

I'm out of this conversation, mostly because you've pissed me off.

Good to know you budget alot for games. I simply do not have that luxury. And there is no need to attack my personal finances in a forum discussing DRM.

Not the first time hes done such. :roll:

I just decide not to partake in such discussions because of so.

(HL2 im looking at you! :cheers)

Perhaps. In fact, HL2 is a good example (for me) of 'to each their own'... as I thought it was fairly bland. :oops:

I'm out of this conversation, mostly because you've pissed me off.

Bam ! And another discussion about corporate tricks turns to personal war. The sky is burning. WSGF community is torn apart. EA wins.

Bam ! And another discussion about corporate tricks turns to personal war. The sky is burning. WSGF community is torn apart. EA wins.

Rather the point I was trying to make with the whole DRM/piracy discussion comment earlier. It is possible to discuss topics like this without them descending into a few people attempting to justify why they pirate stuff against those who attempt to take the moral high-ground... because when that 'debate' does start up, all it does is sink the thread.

...

The EA wins comment is sadly amusing, though. Because they do win, pretty much no matter what.

You buy the game, unaware of the DRM: EA wins. And you support DRM.
You buy the game 'despite' the DRM: EA wins. And you support DRM.
You buy the game but crack it: EA wins. And you support DRM because you bought the game with the DRM on it.
You pirate the game: EA wins. Because they can justify the DRM due to the pirates.

The only scenario where EA loses is:

You don't buy the game. You don't pirate the game. You get everyone you know to boycott the game, and spread the word about the horrors of overly-restrictive DRM. And boycott other games from the publisher.

If enough people did that last thing, EA would be broke so fast they wouldn't know where their money went. And... they wouldn't be able to blame it on piracy (even though they probably would anyway because it's 'cool' to blame poor sales of a shit game/DVD/CD/whatever on piracy...)

...

DRM is a fact of electronic life now. It's been around for donkey's years, just not in the potentially privacy breaching forms that it is currently incarnated as. The only way 'modern' DRM will die is if the internet dies. Which, interestingly, would also kill off 99% of 'modern' piracy.

{sarcasm}Maybe the companies that want to use DRM should be lobbying for a shutdown of the internet. {/sarcasm}

You buy the game, unaware of the DRM: EA wins. And you support DRM.
You buy the game 'despite' the DRM: EA wins. And you support DRM.
You buy the game but crack it: EA wins. And you support DRM because you bought the game with the DRM on it.
You pirate the game: EA wins. Because they can justify the DRM due to the pirates.

The only scenario where EA loses is:

You don't buy the game. You don't pirate the game. You get everyone you know to boycott the game, and spread the word about the horrors of overly-restrictive DRM. And boycott other games from the publisher.

There is one more possible win scenario: vast numbers legitimate purchasers of the game create enough backlash to give EA whiplash-->EA might consider trying to make those people happy by backing off.

It is entirely possible to present one's own opinion without it being an assault against someone else. For instance, I don't pirate games for the same reason I don't take them from the local store without paying for them first. I also refuse to pay $50 for a piece of entertainment, so my game purchases are normally 6-12 months behind the release curve because I wait for price drops. This my practice, nothing more or less.

Guys, we can discuss this on a macro level--companies/customers/trends/etc.--without personal conflicts with each other. Your business is your business...mine is mine. I'm happy to discuss and debate, which is why I started the thread.

DRM is a fact of electronic life now.

True and agreed. Certain levels of DRM are tolerable, in my view. These new versions have gone too far, because they clearly punish customers yet the pirates have no troubles at all. Someone intelligent in the industry needs to create a way of combating piracy that does not put undue burdens on paying customers, who should be treated like gold the instant they fork over their cash.