Bioshock: artistic vision - or not as the case may be

Gabbo · Post by **Gabbo** » 22 Aug 2007, 17:45

That is a lame excuse. I guess it is easier to play the "artistic vision" card than it is to patch the game.

So I guess that means that 2K will not be granting us HOR+.

Thank God for Racer_S.

mkk · Post by **mkk** » 22 Aug 2007, 17:53

Another case of what can happen when you primarily develop for consoles..., sigh. O wait, maybe if I put my monitor two feet further back it will feel better! Yay! :lol:
I'll just have a look at that donation thing.

greylantern · Post by **greylantern** » 22 Aug 2007, 17:53

Wow.. NOW is the time to cancel the pre-order I guess?

Absolutely disgusted that 2k have played the company line here (politics) rather than admit it was either a F-up or a VERY BAD design choice.

They say it's done for artistic reasons but the 4:3 users do NOT get the same FOV - they get a zoomed out one (or normal as every other game calls it).

Just lost all respect for 2k, especially in view of what their lead coder had previously posted.

This is just food for the majority who they thought would be easier to please that admit to they (and the majority who were 'happy') were wrong.

A design choice? Sack your designers and ask for proper player feedback from WS gamers next time not 'yes men'.

Thank god those of us who do know what we want can play it properly with the fix.

barf0r · Post by **barf0r** » 22 Aug 2007, 17:54

Well i've tried the demo the way they intended and I've tried it using the hack, and in my opinion the hack makes the game look a lot better.

But as we mentioned earlier, changes to video game code do not happen in minutes or hours.

Looks like there won't be an implemented fix for a long time so its lucky we have Racer_S!!

Post by **ctrlsteef** » 22 Aug 2007, 17:56

Damn mates, that such a lame excuse. Even when there's such massive amount of people agreeing with the fact that the FOV isn't correct they still say it is right as it is. >_<

Osuperman · Post by **Osuperman** » 22 Aug 2007, 17:57

Okay, so it was working, then the bathysphere surfaced, and all my textures suddenly look dreadful ~(like pre-1998) the DX10 surfaces can't be the only thing doing this!? I also noticed the glossy surfaces look crap now (all the bill posters have an etched glass look under DX10) too, so the game looks really bad, I have no idea how to take in-game screenshots to show this but trust me its horrible.

So for me, the right-click "play as DX9" isn't an option, so I'm back to square one, and looks like I spoke too soon!!!!

Elios · Post by **Elios** » 22 Aug 2007, 17:57

LOL WUT

Instead of cropping the FOV for 4:3 displays and making all 4:3 owners mad in doing so, we slightly extended the vertical FOV for standard def mode:

isnt that the same as croping
way to spin it

Scoty · Post by **Scoty** » 22 Aug 2007, 17:58

Scoty: Read page 14. There is a large post there giving you all the options you have available by GoogleStater

ok thank you but i dont understand the setting (my English is not good). i use 16:10 with 1680x1050. is this the real fov for me:

16:10 = 0.833 sliders. Effective FOV = 90 degrees

and is 0.833 for both sliders the same settings ?

Gabbo · Post by **Gabbo** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:00

Well, to their credit, it does look like they are "looking into" allowing us to alter the FOV within the game. I take it they mean the PC version. It does probably mean the 360 version will likely go unchanged.

Still, I think it was just carefully worded PR damage control rather than manning up and admitting that they implemented it incorrectly.

I mean seriously, what is more natural to the human eyes. Expanded view on the Vertical axis (yeah, if our eyes where stacked on top of each other... so rather than having a right and left eye, we would refer to them as my top or bottom eye), or a Horizontal axis (wider viewing angle simulating peripheral vision).

bioshocker · Post by **bioshocker** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:00

http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html

Reports of the widescreen FOV being a crop of the 4:3 FOV are completely false.

It certainly had the "effect" of a crop. Comments?

Instead of cropping the FOV for 4:3 displays and making all 4:3 owners mad in doing so, we slightly extended the vertical FOV for standard def mode:

isnt that the same as croping

That's what I thought.

Cynagen · Post by **Cynagen** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:05

But as we mentioned earlier, changes to video game code do not happen in minutes or hours.

Load of BULL, 48-72 hours, Racer_S found the MEMORY locations to modify all that information, and created an application to tap the memory and fix it on the fly. I'm sorry, but if I have a game i'm working on, i'm hiring Racer_S to develop it, not you stupid cheap s.o.b.s over at 2K, 0 respect from the gaming community. *Deletes BioShock demo before even playing it*

Osuperman · Post by **Osuperman** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:06

http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html

Reports of the widescreen FOV being a crop of the 4:3 FOV are completely false.

It certainly had the "effect" of a crop. Comments?

I'm disgusted. So what they are saying is that every game I own which properly implements widescreen resolutions (Half life 2, FarCry, FEAR, PREY, Riddick, Quake 4, Doom 3, to name a few!) is wrong and 2K/Irrational are right? That's utter nonsense.

barf0r · Post by **barf0r** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:08

[quote]Scoty: Read page 14. There is a large post there giving you all the options you have available by GoogleStater

ok thank you but i dont understand the setting (my English is not good). i use 16:10 with 1680x1050. is this the real fov for me:

16:10 = 0.833 sliders. Effective FOV = 90 degrees

and is 0.833 for both sliders the same settings ?
Yes put both sliders to the same setting.

You can use 0.833 for a FOV of 90 degrees.
Or, 0.694 for a FOV of 108 degrees.

Try both and see which you prefer. I felt happier with 0.694 personally, that was at a resolution of 1440*900 though, so you may have a different opinion.

trrll · Post by **trrll** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:10

2K intentionally gives 4:3 screens more visual information

Actually, the game gives wide screens more visual information, because the "game makes use of the full screen resolution, and does not crop or stretch a lower resolution image into a wide screen one." Wide screens have more pixels. More pixels = more visual information. It is simply that the information is in the form of greater resolution and a larger, clearer picture in the "business" part of the display where the real action occurs.

Part of the problem seems to be that some people are defining "wide screen support" based not upon how well the resolution of the screen is employed in support of the artistic and gameplay goals of a game's designers, but instead by a nonsensical comparison of how much stuff you see on the sides compared to a 4:3 display. I had to laugh at one exchange with one of the game's developers, where somebody asked him if the game was going to be "vert-" and he obviously didn't know what the questioner was talking about--not surprisingly, because it is such a foolish way to think about widescreen support that it makes no sense.

From the point of view of a designer, the game should provide the optimum game experience possible on a particular system. For a game such as Bioshock, whether or not you can see what is sneaking up on your sides is crucial; how much of the floor, ceiling, or your own wrist that you see is unimportant. So the designers made the decision to effectively "letterbox" the 4:3 display, reducing the vertical size and resolution of the part of the image where all the real occurs in order to fit it onto a narrower screen. For a film, this would have required letterboxing--black bars above and below the image. But since this is a computer, the designers were able to fill in that space with visual data above and below that was not considered important enough to show on a widescreen display--which at least prevents problems of burn-in on CRT and plasma screens, and helps to disguise the fact that 4:3 screen owners are getting shortchanged on the part of the image that really matters.

But now, widescreen owners, convinced that their wider screen entitles them to see more "stuff" on the sides than their benighted 4:3 brethren, are demanding a wider FOV. Of course, the current FOV is the one designed and play tested by the designers, and the complainers mostly haven't even played the game to any extent. But perhaps the developers will give in to the demand and release a "wide-FOV" patch, and "widescreen=more stuff on the sides" zealots will play it in that mode, happy that they are getting what they think of as a "true" (i.e. more FOV than 4:3) widescreen image, and blissfully unaware that they are actually getting a degraded game experience.

Gabbo · Post by **Gabbo** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:12

http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/home.html

Reports of the widescreen FOV being a crop of the 4:3 FOV are completely false.

It certainly had the "effect" of a crop. Comments?

Instead of cropping the FOV for 4:3 displays and making all 4:3 owners mad in doing so, we slightly extended the vertical FOV for standard def mode:

isnt that the same as croping

That's what I thought.

Yes. If they lock the horizontal fov and expand the vertical fov for 4:3 users, it is essentially "cropping" the 4:3 image to fit a widescreen display.

The more I read that statement, the less I think that even the developers know what we are talking about. What we call "cropping", they interpret as letterboxing.

This quote is perplexing:

"When playing in widescreen modes the game makes use of the full screen resolution, and does not crop or stretch a lower resolution image into a wide screen one. For example, at 720p the game renders natively to the full 1280x720 resolution"

Did we every say anything about stretching? No, we know the aspect ratio is correct. Did anyone ever even think that the 720p mode was not displaying at 1280x720? These aren't even the point of the widescreen controversy.

I will be keeping my "top and bottom" eyes on this issue 2k!

Osuperman · Post by **Osuperman** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:13

Mister trrll, I hope one day you buy a wide monitor and will one day understand, that is all I have to say.

Gabbo · Post by **Gabbo** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:16

Actually, the game gives wide screens more visual information, because the "game makes use of the full screen resolution, and does not crop or stretch a lower resolution image into a wide screen one." Wide screens have more pixels. More pixels = more visual information. It is simply that the information is in the form of greater resolution and a larger, clearer picture in the "business" part of the display where the real action occurs.

This is so incorrect, that I don't even know where to start. When we say "see more" it is not referring to resolution. And Widescreen does not automatically mean "higher res". 1440x900 (A common 19" widescreen resolution) is less pixels than 1600x1200 (A common 19" 4:3 resolution).

Spongeh · Post by **Spongeh** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:18

Ok guys, you're upset that it doesn't look right on your widescreen monitor. Boohoo IMO (look at sig before you flame me, I have one too.). The game is bar none phenomenal. You're crazy for not playing this game, especially when the wonderful people here have created a temporary fix in the mean time.

It's a shame really, that you'd want to spend hours bashing 2k, when you could be enjoying yourself in a truly amazing game. But hey, to each his own I guess.

A huge thanks to Paddy for finding the flaw, and a super huge thanks to Racer_S for developing a fix.

On the note of it taking Racer a couple of days to find the needed to code to tap into. Please note that not everyone can use this hack. I'm on vista 64-bit and cannot use it. It's going to take him a few days to sort out the many issues with differen't OS's. So please, cut some slack to 2k would you. I'm sure they have their hands full with alot of stuff right now.

Sorry for the rant, but I find the entirety of this thread obsurd. IMO there needs to be 3 posts.

1. Paddy found the flaw
2. Racer develops a hack.
3. A link to the hack.

Post by **Paddy the Wak** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:19

[quote]2K intentionally gives 4:3 screens more visual information

Actually, the game gives wide screens more visual information, because the "game makes use of the full screen resolution, and does not crop or stretch a lower resolution image into a wide screen one." Wide screens have more pixels. More pixels = more visual information. It is simply that the information is in the form of greater resolution and a larger, clearer picture in the "business" part of the display where the real action occurs.

Part of the problem seems to be that some people are defining "wide screen support" based not upon how well the resolution of the screen is employed in support of the artistic and gameplay goals of a game's designers, but instead by a nonsensical comparison of how much stuff you see on the sides compared to a 4:3 display. I had to laugh at one exchange with one of the game's developers, where somebody asked him if the game was going to be "vert-" and he obviously didn't know what the questioner was talking about--not surprisingly, because it is such a foolish way to think about widescreen support that it makes no sense.

From the point of view of a designer, the game should provide the optimum game experience possible on a particular system. For a game such as Bioshock, whether or not you can see what is sneaking up on your sides is crucial; how much of the floor, ceiling, or your own wrist that you see is unimportant. So the designers made the decision to effectively "letterbox" the 4:3 display, reducing the vertical size and resolution of the part of the image where all the real occurs in order to fit it onto a narrower screen. For a film, this would have required letterboxing--black bars above and below the image. But since this is a computer, the designers were able to fill in that space with visual data above and below that was not considered important enough to show on a widescreen display--which at least prevents problems of burn-in on CRT and plasma screens, and helps to disguise the fact that 4:3 screen owners are getting shortchanged on the part of the image that really matters.

But now, widescreen owners, convinced that their wider screen entitles them to see more "stuff" on the sides than their benighted 4:3 brethren, are demanding a wider FOV. Of course, the current FOV is the one designed and play tested by the designers, and the complainers mostly haven't even played the game to any extent. But perhaps the developers will give in to the demand and release a "wide-FOV" patch, and "widescreen=more stuff on the sides" zealots will play it in that mode, happy that they are getting what they think of as a "true" (i.e. more FOV than 4:3) widescreen image, and blissfully unaware that they are actually getting a degraded game experience.

What bull ...
Back in May when questioned about widescreen the Lead programmer said that widescreen users would see more ...

Originally Posted by ckline View Post

You will see more in widescreen. We use a different projection matrix; there is no squashing or stretching of the image involved.

- Chris Kline, Lead Programmer, Bioshock

Elizabeth and the 2K team are back tracking to cover their asses ...

Apple · Post by **Apple** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:19

Sigh....

All this is, is a quick write up for damage controll.

"Instead of cropping the FOV for 4:3 displays and making all 4:3 owners mad in doing so, we slightly extended the vertical FOV for standard def mode"

Seriously.... Look out all the 4:3 users are gonna get mad! Thats pretty bad, If I was a 4:3 user I would be more mad about getting a zoomed out image if the game actually was correctly doing widescreen... But its not, widescreen users and 360 users with a HDTV get a cut down FOV.

I guess it could be designed that way, but it seems like a very weird design choice on there part.....

Widescreen Gaming Forum