Widescreen Gaming Forum

Thank you for the reply! I'm glad to see that you're well informed on the subject, and I'm also glad to hear that you've had experience with other curved setups. I've actually argued this issue on the Internet (arguing on the Internet? never) in which the other party, also focusing on curved displays, decided to call me out for pointing out the geometric issues with it. So again, thank you for being completely aware of the limits. I'm also glad to hear that you've done research into modifying game engines to fit better. This sounds like an awesome potential piece of tech and I'm excited to see what it might lead.

Since we're already going to be dealing with wild FOVs and warping with the support coming from the Rift, which by design tears the interface away from the world so that the two are now separate entities, do you supposed some of your curved-screen support might make its way into this sort of system automatically with Oculus Rift development?

I also foresee the Razer Hydra benefiting from this, I'm mostly hoping for a sweeping change in the way that graphics engines are handled, so maybe we can start seeing support for more accessories or strange setups in general.

Again, this looks super awesome. If you want a beta tester, let me know. I have a Steam library with over 500 titles ready to be tested.

Since we're already going to be dealing with wild FOVs and warping with the support coming from the Rift, which by design tears the interface away from the world so that the two are now separate entities, do you supposed some of your curved-screen support might make its way into this sort of system automatically with Oculus Rift development?

While we are obviously tracking the progress of Rift, I don't imagine any overlap at present. The Rift is very low res, with the 720p screen being divided in two, half for each eye.
On the other hand, games made for Rift may indeed include some new and useful parameters, both HUD and FOV wise.

I also foresee the Razer Hydra benefiting from this, I'm mostly hoping for a sweeping change in the way that graphics engines are handled, so maybe we can start seeing support for more accessories or strange setups in general.

The Hydra does look interesting, especially if you were standing up in a FPS, and certainly cheaper than an omni-directional treadmill! We've got one on order...

Again, this looks super awesome. If you want a beta tester, let me know. I have a Steam library with over 500 titles ready to be tested.

I'll keep you in mind

Cheers!

I would HIGHLY Be Interested in th 180degree with 3D setup..

IF using a curved screen as someone may have already pointed you you need warping software and I have the perfect solution it is called nThusim..you can check out that sight and the multiple curved screen setup thay have there along with mine I use the same name here as there..

I had looked into the trident as nice as it is it is really expensive.. I am hoping this solution will be in the relms of cost effective..

I just dont see it happening.. the material you are talking about for a Rear preojection is costly then you will need first reflection mirrors.. I dont see how this is going to be an cost effective sloution..

I really hope I am wrong but to get a good rear projection you need the proper material.. I am unsre what type of material you are talking about I hope it is not spandex..

I will kkep this blog linked to keep up with the progress and hopefully see it come to pass..

Hope you can also address some of my concerns..

I've been working on exactly what you are trying to do for a couple of years.
My youtube page has some shots of what I've done: http://www.youtube.com/user/VanFS3K

Short throw is also my goal, but its harder than you think.

I haven't purchased my final projectors yet, just test units. Some 1080p LED projectors come out this fall that I'll have my eye on. The plan is to have 5x of these in portrait. I've learned the best setups of projectors for this kind of thing is either 2 in landscape or 5 in portrait (16:9 or 16:10).
3 projectors in landscape is just too wide, so you'll either lose horizontal real-estate because the screen sizes are too small or most of the vertical screen will be out of your vision because the screen sizes are too big.

Let me know if you have any questions.

PROJECT UPDATE
Finally we have our large bed laser cutter installed


..and tested...


This means we can build begin building physical prototypes.

I can reveal we've opted for the LUXCINE C7 for our initial test set-ups. As well as being affordable, LED (20000+ lamp life), it features diamond shaped pixels and a virtually invisible grid. The result being you can hardly detect any pixels at all. Another pleasant surprise has been that despite it's 500 ANSI Lumen rating, it's plenty bright enough at the 100" screen-size we envisage for the Infintx D, but also under controlled lighting can drive a MUCH bigger screen if you have the room to spare. For example a 3m diameter, 2.4m high screen- That gives you space for 6 people, or a full-sized car or cockpit.

BRAIN STORMING...

(NOTE: The following is just an idea we would like to discuss, and not necessarily a design proposition.)

One or the most obvious challenges with Widescreen set-ups, that everyone runs into, is the "side stretching" of graphics.
It's a widely misunderstood phenomenon and therefor fills considerable pages on this very forum.
http://www.wsgf.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=14082
If you want to see what I'm talking about here's a simple demo.
http://www.strombergindustries.com/newPerspective/

...and if you don't have Flash installed here's screenshots.


When you set your FOV for a game to an extreme value (100 degrees plus), you will generally see objects distorted towards the edges. They appear elongated.
This is not an error, but actually because of the mathematical precision of the 3D engine.
If you try the above demo, with your nose up against your monitor (actual distance depends on monitor size), you should notice that the ball looks round from center to extreme left/right, as you are looking at it from the angle it was calculated from. The camera in the 3D engine, the place where the view is calculated, is at that point in 3D space, not way back where you typically have your favorite gaming chair. So why don't they move the virtual camera out to a more natural viewing position? Because that automatically reduces the field of view, which is the reason you lashed out on a triple head in the first place. Here's the simple, illustrated explanation.



So why rake over that age old problem?
We're looking for the optimum shape for the infinitx screen. There's nothing to say it has to be a regular arc. There was an idea to make a flat middle monitor with curved "wings". We're already bending the output image so as to appear correct on the cylindrical screen, why not go a stage further and distort the image to look natural on the screen from a human perspective, rather than mathematically correct, from a flat computer monitor perspective.

It would be possible to build a reflector system that shows a 16:9 area normally in the center of the screen, but then gradually bunches the image up towards the edges, while bending them inwards, compensating for the exaggerated field of view.
In theory at least, that would give you a set-up that shows non-widescreen titles and movies correctly, and super wide fields of view in a more natural looking way.

The screen would look something like this. The checker pattern shows how the wings gradually compress the edges to keep round objects round, when set to the appropriate FOV.





If that makes sense to anyone, I'd be glad to hear about it. Also if it's completely off the mark.

Cheers!

As I mentioned above, 3 in landscape is too wide. Even though it mostly depends on the games scaling capability, you almost always get the "fish eye" effect with 3 projectors. Unless you plan on creating a room with 180 degree projection, avoid using 3.

Wow, 2 posts while I was writing that one

Nephalim > There is no software warping involved here, though you would have the option of edge blending if you need it.
We have invented and patented a mirror array that takes care of that, and costs less than most warping software. The benefits are that it is compatible with all versions of DirectX, OpenGL, and doesn't add lag to the rendering pipeline.

Screen tech is low reflection acrylic, coated with high contrast, light dispersion polymer to remove hotspots.

We are making larger screens in 180 degree format. This particular model is designed for desktop gaming. So far 110 to 135 degrees seems the most popular choice for that application.

Snipe 3000 > Cool stuff
I think maybe we can help on the short throw issue. The screen described here uses a projector with 1.22 throw ratio (not very short throw) and still manages to pack it into 36cm depth. Our larger displays will use genuine short throw projectors (0.5 - 0.7 throw ratio), and manage a depth of 60cm, for a 4.5m wide screen.
The light folding reflectors take care of warping. Aspect ratio is affected, but can be easily rectified.

There's a bit more info about where we're coming from on this thread. Unfortunately half the thread got wiped in the last db crash, but you should get the idea...
http://www.wsgf.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=25274

Cheers

I'm very curious to see this work with more than one projector. It would definitely be nice to not need the software. The software's biggest problem isn't price, its compatibility. I have two of them just in case one has an issue with a certain game.

It seems you are using mirrors? Most high quality rear projection screens are glossy on the back side, not completely reflective, but there is still some reflection. How are you guys compensating for this?

I think the following would work better for your "build up as you go" players:

Make all parts modular and then offer them both individually and as packages (possibly with discounted costs). Since this is for the advanced gamer, but will still be easier than building your own H2O cooling setup, it shouldn't be too hard for the people that will actually buy this. Like most gamers, you don't just go out and buy four video cards at 500 bucks a piece, you buy two and then get a third on another paycheck, and a fourth on another.

For instance:

Part Codes break out by revision series and type
P = Projectors
R = Reflectors
S = Screens
1 = Revision 1 (in a few years, maybe do a revision 2 with new technologies)
17 = 17" Size (where applicable, otherwise just extending the next value)
0: last digit (or last 3 digits if size isn't applicable) be an individual part number

Part P1000: Projector LowRes, LowQual $50
Part P1001: Projector LowRes, MedQual $75
Part P1002: Projector MedRes, HiQual $250
Part P1003: Projector HiRes, HiQual $500
Part R1000: Reflector $50
Part S1170: Screen, 17" 4:3 $25
Part S1171: Screen, 17" 16:9 $30
Part S1190: Screen, 19" 4:3 $30
Part S1191: Screen, 19" 16:9 $35
Part S1230: Screen, 23" 4:3 $50
Part S1231: Screen, 23" 16:9 $60
Part S1270: Screen, 27" 4:3 $80
Part S1271: Screen, 27" 16:9 $90
* Prices are estimated, scale to whatever you need to cover costs.

17" 4:3 setups are cheap
Bundle B1170: Single Monitor 4:3 17" setup, includes P1000 x1 ($50), R1000 x1 ($50), S1170 x1 ($25) = $125 - $5 group discount = $119.99 Retail
Bundle B1171: Triple Monitor 4:3 17" setup, includes P1000 x3 ($50x3), R1000 x3 ($50x3), S1170 x3 ($25x3) = ($125x3=375) - $25 group discount = $349.99 Retail

27" 16:9 setups are expensive
Bundle B1270: Single Monitor 16:9 27" setup, includes P1003 x1 ($500), R1000 x1 ($50), S1271 x1 ($90) = $640 - $15 group discount = $624.99 Retail
Bundle B1271: Triple Monitor 16:9 27" setup, includes P1003 x3 ($500x3), R1000 x3 ($50x3), S1271 x3 ($90x3) = ($640x3=1920) - $50 group discount = $1869.99 Retail

This way you can cookie cutter setups together, people can start with 1 or 2 monitors and work their way up to 5 if they want. Screens should have an individual adjustable arc method, using a knob to apply tension (like a bow string bending a compound bow, but obviously not). This way if they can adjust each side however they want to suit their visual needs. In my case, I would probably want flatter middle and more curved sides.

What projectors have you looked into? You mentioned $3000 projectors, but the Dell M110 is designed for short throwing, can do 1280x800, is LED based and is only $419 retail. I'm sure that if you turned this into a major design you could get them cheaper through a Dell partner program.

Have you considered doing an OLED screen instead of rear projection? Grow it to a size/width that would be three monitors and just have a single flowing screen without messing with rear stuff? I don't know how far the technology has progressed on this...

I would be interested in one of these displays. When will they be available for sale?

So when you have a Lens corrected Screen, and then you get something like this:

(Unigine Engine)

It wouldn't work anymore, because you have Software presets for curved screens to work perfectly, and a curved screen with corrected Lens, what would end up horrible ?

And diamon shaped Pixels ? Aren't pixel supposed to be quadratic ? Guess it's time for me to read some more guides about Projectors! Anyone can offer some good guides about Projector technique ??

Edit: Man those Projectors look cool ^^ Android OS ^^ the 1080p version ? I don't get it, what is a native 1280x800 resolution and then you have a expandend 1080p ? but the Airplay/DLNA pat is cool! 3 Projectors and you can beam photos from your Smartphone onto your Monitor you don't need atm. Miracast would be cooler.

For Portability, sell a "Portability Pack" at a reasonable price:
A. Clips to make the screens mount to each other under break-away mounting. Like Push In, release lock, slide screen back.
B. Reflectors should collapse directly into the back of the screen
C. Back Clip for the Reflectors to solidly mount a projector
D. Handle on the top so you can carry it like a briefcase.
E. Carrying case of various sizes that can hold 3 monitors worth of a setup as well as power cords, etc.
F. Clips that will allow the structure of the Screen and Reflector to be used as a stand for the Projector to point it at a wall for presentations. I could see this being an advantage for small offices where they would want to take a projector into a conference room and use the wall.
G. With this now being so portable, ensure that the plugs work well with TH2Go setups so a person could take their laptop, TH2Go and carrying case to a LAN party and use it however they like.

Touch Support
There are projectors out now with Interactivity capabilities, like the Dell S500wi. This uses a Pen/Wand as a mouse for presentations by tracking the wand position real-time. I believe next gen will actually remove the wand and start tracking actual hand movements. Since this is going against screens on a desk, you could just use touch sensitive screen panelling (like what you would clip over a normal screen to make it a touch screen) as an optional add-on. MagicTouch (Keytech, Inc.) make solutions like these for sale.
http://www.magictouch.com/addon.html

Vertical vs Horizontal Surround Support
Make sure your software and hardware can handle the displays being 9:16 vs 16:9 setups. I personally didn't like the way things were when I did it myself, but others seem to love it.

Custom Sizing
Offer the Screen makeup in square footage (or some size) with instructions on how to build your own screen size. So if you offer up to 27" and a customer wants 31" (some odd number) they can buy and cut and build the screens to what they want and then tune the projectors sync software to what they want.

Thanks Jothay, lots of good insights and ideas there. I think you've hit the nail on the head with a component based ecosystem.

There would still be place for a "standard" set-up, but a web-shop selling components that let you build your own would be a very good idea, allowing hobbyists to build within their budget, and to their specific requirements, and add to the set-up over time.

We can use the same projector cradle with lots of different sized screens, so that's def an option. That allows you to increase your screen size without having to invest in new projectors, or to have 2 different set-ups, maybe one for sitting, one for standing, and use the same hardware.

There are several ways of adding touch interfaces, the cheapest/easiest being infra-red/camera. It's not a priority from our point of view, as touch tends to be less and less practical as screen size increases. Kinect, Razor Hydra, and Leap look like interesting alternatives, while joysticks and steering wheels are surely also here to stay.

Since 1998, when I first started messing with Reality Studio (3D panorama tool), I have been waiting for OLED. Unfortunately the day when we have over-sized OLED screens in diverse radii is still many years away. Too many years to keep waiting. LG are possibly releasing a slightly curved (around 5-10 degrees) OLED screen later this year. For a 3 screen set-up it would cost you £30,000 ($45,000, so start saving), and it's *still* got bezels! I read that LG's entire plant is dedicated to a single sized screen (55") as it's too costly to produce different sizes. Prices will fall. Who knows, maybe in 5 years the entire infintx line will be OLED based, on the other hand 4K laser projectors may cost $300 by then. The best way to predict the future is to build it.

Haldi > Unigine, very interesting engine and a new one on me. Thanks for the link Obviously you wouldn't apply a distortion profile to a screen that handled it for you. I imagine there's still a preset for "flat monitor". Use that and your problem's solved!
Imagine this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4yMnsioOpuo#! inside this...



I stress, the "compression wings" concept is just that, a concept for discussion, and may never see the light of day. It is so ultra specific to wide screen, wide FOV 3D engines.

Cheers!

Just don't settle for rectilinear projection on a curved display and everything will be great. Also, if you're doing you own rectilinear to cylindrical blending, use at least 4-5 viewports for 120-140 HFOV, please.

theMightyAtom wrote:PROJECT UPDATE
Finally we have our large bed laser cutter installed


..and tested...


This means we can build begin building physical prototypes.

I can reveal we've opted for the LUXCINE C7 for our initial test set-ups. As well as being affordable, LED (20000+ lamp life), it features diamond shaped pixels and a virtually invisible grid. The result being you can hardly detect any pixels at all. Another pleasant surprise has been that despite it's 500 ANSI Lumen rating, it's plenty bright enough at the 100" screen-size we envisage for the Infintx D, but also under controlled lighting can drive a MUCH bigger screen if you have the room to spare. For example a 3m diameter, 2.4m high screen- That gives you space for 6 people, or a full-sized car or cockpit.

BRAIN STORMING...

(NOTE: The following is just an idea we would like to discuss, and not necessarily a design proposition.)

One or the most obvious challenges with Widescreen set-ups, that everyone runs into, is the "side stretching" of graphics.
It's a widely misunderstood phenomenon and therefor fills considerable pages on this very forum.
http://www.wsgf.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=14082
If you want to see what I'm talking about here's a simple demo.
http://www.strombergindustries.com/newPerspective/

...and if you don't have Flash installed here's screenshots.


When you set your FOV for a game to an extreme value (100 degrees plus), you will generally see objects distorted towards the edges. They appear elongated.
This is not an error, but actually because of the mathematical precision of the 3D engine.
If you try the above demo, with your nose up against your monitor (actual distance depends on monitor size), you should notice that the ball looks round from center to extreme left/right, as you are looking at it from the angle it was calculated from. The camera in the 3D engine, the place where the view is calculated, is at that point in 3D space, not way back where you typically have your favorite gaming chair. So why don't they move the virtual camera out to a more natural viewing position? Because that automatically reduces the field of view, which is the reason you lashed out on a triple head in the first place. Here's the simple, illustrated explanation.



So why rake over that age old problem?
We're looking for the optimum shape for the infinitx screen. There's nothing to say it has to be a regular arc. There was an idea to make a flat middle monitor with curved "wings". We're already bending the output image so as to appear correct on the cylindrical screen, why not go a stage further and distort the image to look natural on the screen from a human perspective, rather than mathematically correct, from a flat computer monitor perspective.

It would be possible to build a reflector system that shows a 16:9 area normally in the center of the screen, but then gradually bunches the image up towards the edges, while bending them inwards, compensating for the exaggerated field of view.
In theory at least, that would give you a set-up that shows non-widescreen titles and movies correctly, and super wide fields of view in a more natural looking way.

The screen would look something like this. The checker pattern shows how the wings gradually compress the edges to keep round objects round, when set to the appropriate FOV.





If that makes sense to anyone, I'd be glad to hear about it. Also if it's completely off the mark.

Cheers!

No no no, this is pretty much spot on. I did some pictures with FOV and POV angle matching with Borderlands a couple years back but never actually made a post about it. I see you already have the 3D software ready to do this. Might want to use some of these images for the WSGF so we can explain why people need to stop bitching about fisheye.

Just don't settle for rectilinear projection on a curved display and everything will be great. Also, if you're doing you own rectilinear to cylindrical blending, use at least 4-5 viewports for 120-140 HFOV, please.

Randomoneh, point taken. The actual game rendering capabilities are for the most part beyond our control. The reality is unfortunately that for most current titles, rectilinear is all you have to work with. The winged monitor shape, with continuous wide angle warping was a concept for combating that, even though mathematically it's completely wrong, perceptually it may deliver what the brain was expecting to see.

Might want to use some of these images for the WSGF so we can explain why people need to stop bitching about fisheye.

Be my guest Just promise me we'll try and find another term than "fisheye", as it's kind of the opposite of what's happening. The distortion is a product of what Randomoneh refers to, that is a rectilinear projection and NOT a fisheye with is a spherical projection, and would actually work much better for super wide screens.

Cheers!

theMightyAtom wrote:

Might want to use some of these images for the WSGF so we can explain why people need to stop bitching about fisheye.

Be my guest Just promise me we'll try and find another term than "fisheye", as it's kind of the opposite of what's happening. The distortion is a product of what Randomoneh refers to, that is a rectilinear projection and NOT a fisheye with is a spherical projection, and would actually work much better for super wide screens.

Cheers!

I've seen the term "fishbowl" used in a similar context.

That is an interesting Video on YouTube. I might be a bit dense with some of the terms, but what is causing the trees in some parts of the video to bend prior to going off the edge and some are just straight? What causes the terrain to bend around/away from the perspective?

Just posting to add support to this project, will keep an eye on it for sure! This is something I've been following for years (obviously previous attempts never really took off) so I'm hopeful this time a real contender will emerge...

Think the new (slightly) curved OLED tvs may help public perception of the idea too. I know it's going to be mostly enthusiasts that will want this at first, but gaining even some small traction amongst the (usually fairly conservative) general population is always good

I hope you will be able to produce a setup that is competitive in price with a monitor setup similar in size. Just the lack of bezels is a huge plus point. Possible better perception with custom screens (wings/flared and such) is another big plus over monitor setups. And finaly if over sea delivery will be possible/affordable you can write me up for 1!