Widescreen Gaming Forum

Hello.

Satisfied Element S owner, here.

Personally I think the Element S looks terrible, but to each their own.

Pretty much what I was subtly saying with the 'getting used to' remark :roll: . . . but it seems so awfully practical.

Quiet, sturdy, innovative design with efficient cable management features. Handsomely slimline look with sharp accents. It may grow on you.

Are those on/off/reset/etc. buttons there on top-front? Great place for them to be imho.

Yes. Left to right: USB, Mic, Speaker, Phones, e-SATA, Power, Reset, USB. Also HDD and PWR LED. Conveniently located for floor placement.





For the same features, additional cooling, with a more conventional look consider the Element G. Same overall internal layout as the S but with more conventional front bezel, large side fan, and switchable LED colors. Also, the G locates a fan speed selector top front:





Hope this helps

"Trophy": Core i7 940, MSI x58 Platinum MB, 6GB DDR3 1600, 500GB + 2 x 1TB HD, Dual Boot Vista64 + XP Pro, 2x GTX 260 Core216 OC’d SLI, X-Fi Ti Pro, Astro A40 Audio System, WinTV-HVR-1800, DTH2GO, 3xViewsonic VX2262wm 5040x1050, Logitech G13 + G15 + G25 + G51 + MX5500 + QCamPro9000, SandioTech 3D Mouse, TrackIR 5 + Clip, Thermaltake ToughPower 1000w, Thermaltake Spedo Case

"Talent": Phenom II X3 710, GigaByte GA-MA790X-UD4P MB, 4GB DDR2 800, 2 x 500GB + 2 x 1.5TB HD, Dual Boot XP Pro + Win7 64 RC1, GTX 280, X-Fi Ti Pro, Astro A40 Audio System, WinTV-HVR-1800, DTH2GO, 3xViewsonic VX2235wm 5040x1050, Logitech G13 + G15 + G25 + G51 + MX5500 + QCamPro9000, ECCI TrackStar 6000 Pedals, SST Lightning Shifter, SandioTech 3D Mouse, Saitek Pro X52 + Flight Yoke + Throttle + Pedals + Switch Panel, TrackIR 5 + Clip, Thermaltake ToughPower 750w, Thermaltake Element S Case

Right... the big advice here is overclock.

But, I've talked to some relatives, and there sure are some drawbacks to that:

- Bigger cooler required, thus negating part of the price difference.
- Probably more noise.
- Lose warranty - rather a biggie to me.
- Shorter lifespan.
- More power consumption?

The lifespan is actually important, as I kind of expect this to be my last big pc purchase for a long long time. 3 years won't cut it.

I'll try to deal with your concerns one at a time. I'm not going to try to convince you, if you want to go with the 950, then do so. I will, however, try to dispel some misconceptions that people seem to have about overclocking.

Overclocking has two modes of thought: "extreme" where the chip is pushed right to it's limits (and sometimes past them) and "better value" where it's just a case of getting a slower processor up to the speed of a slightly more expensive one.

The only time overclocking will seriously impact the life of a processor is if you push it too far - that "extreme" overclocking. A mild overclock will not have any effect on the CPU. Want to know why?

Because all CPUs are made the same way. The same batch of chips will all come from the same wafer of silicon. When they come out of the lithography process, they're untested... they're all 'equal'. As the chips are tested, they're tested for a particular power and thermal envelope, starting with the top-end (say, i7 975) chips and working down, in quotas. If a chip fails to pass testing for the top end (i7 975), it's tested in the next band down (i7 950), and down (i7 920), and so on... frequently chips that fail will fail all the tests at any tier, and so be thrown away. Now, with a mature process, the yields are good. That means that the quota for top end chips usually gets filled before all the good chips are allotted. End result: you get good chips in the 'lower' tiers. So chances are fairly good that your chip, even if it's a 920 or a 950, if they'd picked it and tested it first, would have been a 975.

If you're trying to get the system quiet, you'll want a cooler other than the stock anyway, such as that Noctua. "More noise" is utter nonsense if you're doing it right.

Unless you blow the chip up in style (and by style I mean feeding it 1.7v or something insane like that) they're not gonna know you overclocked it. I've never killed a chip by overclocking. And all the chips I've overclocked still work, and are long out of warranty now.

Shorter lifespan: do you know how long most silicon is rated to work for at 'stock' speeds? About 20 years. Even with a fairly enthusiastic overclock (like my 2.66GHz 920 to 3.8GHz) you'll maybe take a third of that life off. Maybe. A mild overclock will barely register.

More power consumption: well, yes, in theory. In practice, it's not a great deal extra. You take a 920 to 950 speeds, and it'll draw almost exactly the same amount of power. You take it to 3.8GHz, on the other hand, it'll draw a lot more. Still, if you can get something done in five minutes at 3.8GHz, but it takes you seven at 3GHz, does it save you power because it's taken less time?

Lifespan a isn't worry. I've got an AMD K6-2 that is still happily churning away at 450MHz instead of it's stock 350MHz... and I first overclocked it nine years ago. It's in a hardware firewall, and turned on 24/7/365, or close enough.

Therefore I think it may be best to stay away from overclocking. Bearing that in mind, the 2.67 GHz from a 920 just doesn't impress me enough. 3GHz sounds more like it, which explains my initial choice for the 950.

Fair enough. I wished to dispel some of your misconceptions that seemed to have developed. The 920 will cost you €250 instead of the €470 of the i7 950; even if you spend €60 on a cooler, that's still a significant saving. And if you want that CPU to run quiet, you'll need an aftermarket cooler... that's gonna be an absolutely minimum of €30, even if you go with the i7 950.

For a cooler I want something quiet, without requiring ridiculous amounts of work, like lapping the base. Isn't that what thermal paste is for anyway?

Thermal paste is there to fill the microscopic holes that you can't see. It's not there to account for a base that terribly designed and needs nearly 1.5mm of metal taken off the centre before it's actually flat. The Noctua heatsink is flat. The TRUE is not.

And PS is right in his previous post there - not everything is as easily available physically as the info on the internet. The shop I linked to actually has a huge selection already, which is my reason for picking them in the first place. It's still a few hours drive probably :roll:
So please select a cooler from this list.

As I said, the Noctua U12P SE1366 (everything you need in one box). I'm not all that impressed by most of the others for modern chips. I used to like the Scythe Ninja and Zipang, but I don't think they'll cope too well with a Core i7 chip.

Incidentally, this case would pretty much solve my cooling problems, but at a serious price tag. Probably not worth it. Has the coolness factor though.

IIRC, that case is designed for liquid cooling.

what Para said, a i920 running at any less than 4Ghz really, maybe more like 3.8 is more conservitive...

you wont notice much if any increase in power consumption, maybe a few watts.

as for heat output...

TDP = Stock TDP * (MHz / Stock MHz) * (voltage / stock voltage)^2

so for a i920 at 3.8Ghz your looking at a 135w default TDP.

say it needs 1.2v @ 2.667 and 1.285 @ 3.8v

so TDP = 130x (3800/2667) x ((1.285/1.20)^2)

= 212w.

Shoves the TDP up a lot. That just means the amount of heat the CPU could possibly generate under heavy heavy load, it doesnt relate to power consumption except, the higher the TDP the higher the consumption.

As for its life etc, the specs for the CPU itself show nearly 1.4v as operating voltage

http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=37147

Overclocking will void your warranty, but i have had CPU's for 9 years since i was 13, 2700+, 2600+ barton, 3200+ winchester, Opty 175 and a E8400, i have never had a failure from overclocking, the winchester for example was put from 2.0 to nearly 3 for a good while, saw no ill effects. All of them work fine to this day.

I would go for the cheaper CPU and then overclock it.

Even if you dont overclock it, the i920 is a monster :D

Well, the warranty is actually void argument in this case I suppose, because at the price of the 950, I could buy almost 2 920's, i.e. a replacement if it goes wrong.

Bit in doubt still. I think I'll let things depend on the price level at the time of purchase. I do expect prices to drop before then - especially if the Core i9 arrives on the market. The price difference between 920 and 950 might change into being more favourable to the 950. At current prices, I'd have to say the 920 OC'd is the better choice...

I think I'll stick with the Noctua cooler then for the time being.


Interesting case, the Element G - but I think I'll stick with the S. Does seem more classy. I've grown a bit on it already :roll: Every button and LED is just in the right place out there, as floor placement is what I'll have.

More power consumption: well, yes, in theory. In practice, it's not a great deal extra. You take a 920 to 950 speeds, and it'll draw almost exactly the same amount of power. You take it to 3.8GHz, on the other hand, it'll draw a lot more. Still, if you can get something done in five minutes at 3.8GHz, but it takes you seven at 3GHz, does it save you power because it's taken less time?

Power consumtion increase is negliable, if your not touching the voltage. Which you should not be especially on your first overclock.

Voltage is basically what defines the difference between an (as PS put it) extreme overclock and a value overclock.

It wont be any louder than the stock fan. Actually it will probably be quieter than the stock cooler.

Im another overclocker, power draw and heat is almost all based on your voltage.

If you can get a stable OC out of your cpu without voltage increase its not going to effect its lifespan or void your warranty.

Even a small safe OC (usually 10% voltage is safe) really wont hurt the life and if it did your talking 15 years instead of 20.

The cost saved is huge, and so is the performance benefit as even the cheapest cpu will OC past the stock highest class cpu.

Knowing how to play the OC game lets you get the most out of your equipment and get the best return for your dollar.

My OC is the only reason I am quite contempt with my Q6600 and didnt have to spend the $$$ for an i7 upgrade. It runs 3.6ghz 24/7 instead of the stock 2.4ghz.

I must admit I would love to have an i7 and overclock it though for even more performance :D

Voltage is basically what defines the difference between an (as PS put it) extreme overclock and a value overclock.

I'm trying to keep it simple and as un-scary as possible. Defining overclocking in two categories seemed the best way. :)

And PS is right in his previous post there - not everything is as easily available physically as the info on the internet. The shop I linked to actually has a huge selection already, which is my reason for picking them in the first place. It's still a few hours drive probably :roll:
So please select a cooler from this list.

then I would choose this one : http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/CPUs_Koelers/Noctua/NH-U12P_SE1366/-1074579/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Koeling&l2=Processor (as I said before I think ;) )
the dual noctua fans on it means you can pretty much leave them both on the lowest setting without any concern for heat
and since they aren't noisy to begin with...

and I find that cooler to be a bargain for what it is, since each fan itself is approximately 20€ when bought alone... do the math :wink:

Right, the Noctua goes on the list. Seems like a fine piece of cooler :)

Also, for the PSU, I've chosen a middle road that appears to be available: a Corsair 750HX. Much higher efficiency, more room at the peak power, bigger fan, and some features that appear more advanced. At only €26 more than the 620HX.


Now, let's get the components listed again, as things are now:

New:
- Thermaltake Element S VK60001W2Z - €129
- Corsair CMPSU-750HX - €125
- GigaByte GA-EX58-UD5 - €229
- Intel® Core™ i7 920 - €249 OR Intel® Core™ i7 950 - €469 (choice depends on price when buying, availability, and personal preference - 920 seems out of stock atm)
- Noctua NH-U12P SE1366 - €69
- Corsair 6 GB DDR3-1600 Tri-Kit, TR3X6G1600C8 - €143 *
- Sapphire HD5870 1GB - €369
- Intel® SSDSA2MH160G2C1 - €399 (160GB SSD)
- Windows 7. Haven't fully decided on the version yet. OEM will probably run me about €90 for the 'home premium' edition.

From current build:
- Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro
- DVD drive
- 300GB SATA harddisk. I think it's a Maxtor.
- Logitech G9 mouse, G15 keyboard, joystick, gamepad, printer, scanner, monitors etc. etc.
_________________________________________
- Total price: €2022 (Based on the i7 950 and current prices. I'm still expecting price drops on at least the SSD and processors.)


* The memory may require some additional thinking. The following page shows the available types of 1600MHz DDR3 Kits: click
Apparently I went for the cheapest edition before. Is this a wise move? Is it worth getting faster timings? For the moment, I have selected the second cheapest version.

Honestly, mate, RAM timings don't make all tha tmuch difference. We're talking a few seconds off a long encode, or a couple of seconds off a lengthy picture crunch. In games it'll make next to no difference, in general use it'll make next to no difference.

That said, if you want to go for lower latencies (they give the option of slacking them off for a bit of a bandwidth - MHz - boost if you want to tweak the RAM a lot... although it's not something I'd really bother with the first time out...) then go for this kit 7-7-7 instead of 8-8-8, and a few € more. If you want to pinch pennies, then the €120 Corsair 9-9-9-24 kit is what I'm using. I like it, it works.

...

What's the price of the 80GB SSD? Exactly half that of the 160GB drive. Given that SSDs don't suffer from the same failure possibilities of HDDs, if you want ridiculous performance, I'd be tempted to say get two of the 80GB Intel drives and run them in RAID0. 500MB/s read, 140MB/s write. Sounds sweet. ;)

...

If you want Windows 7 - PRE ORDER IT NOW IF YOU CAN. It'll be cheaper than even the OEM version.

- Bigger cooler required, thus negating part of the price difference.

Yet you keep insisting on an aftermarket cooler anyway. Why is this even on the list?

- Probably more noise.

Not so, esp if an aftermarket cooler with a quiet fan is used. More like LESS noise.

- Lose warranty - rather a biggie to me.

Technically yes, but if you clean the thermal paste off properly and don't lap the CPU before sending it in, you'll still get 3 yrs.

- Shorter lifespan.

Not true, esp if you stick with a moderate OC as I mentioned. No sweat means no stress to the chip. A speed of 3.4GHz to 3.6GHz is easily within a 920's comfort zone, esp if you use a better than stock cooler.

- More power consumption?

This is the only slightly valid point your friends made, but honestly, the added power draw will only be seen while gaming, video editing, batch photo processing, etc.

Another thing you may not be aware of is it's possible in the BIOS of many MBs to set the thermal shutdown limit manually for your CPU. This guards against any possible damage to the chip.

I understand some wanting to get their advice from friends vs people you don't know personally on forums, but you have to at some point ask yourself, do they really know what they are talking about from experience?

@ PS,
While I agree with most of what you said about bin allotment on CPUs, I have not heard of anything to the effect that they suddenly stop thermal image testing after the quota of the higher end chips is filled as you imply. From my understanding each chip is thermally tested and falls into its bin via how efficiently it's transistors handles current. As far as I know there is no lucking out and getting a "good" 920 that is just as thermally efficient as a 975. If you can provide ample proof otherwise however, I will digress.

That being said, these chips ARE fairly conservatively rated and tested and all are capable of being OCed quite a bit and run stably that way for yrs. The main thing you're paying for on a 975 other than better thermal efficiency and higher stock speed is an unlocked multiplier.

Concerning the TT Element cases. I read about the Element G and do not like that it's side fan restricts CPU cooler spacing quite a bit more than it's brother the S model. It's also not as quiet as the S.

On RAM timings, I feel it matters how loose vs how tight when comparing modules, esp if you're under the assumption a more expensive higher frequency module with much looser timings is faster. DDR3 1600 at CAS 6 isn't going to be any slower than a much more expensive DDR3 2000 at CAS 9. So paying attention to timings does matter I feel, you just have to use common sense in balancing timings with frequency and price.

If you want Windows 7 - PRE ORDER IT NOW IF YOU CAN. It'll be cheaper than even the OEM version.

Unfortunately: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/60922/prijzen-windows-7-bekendgemaakt.html

That be Dutch, let me translate the following part:

Microsoft heeft ook aangekondigd dat het in enkele landen voor pre-orders tijdelijk extra lage prijzen in rekening brengt. Zo zal Home Premium in de VS tijdelijk 49,99 dollar kosten en de Professional-editie 99,99 dollar. In Frankrijk en Duitsland bedragen de prijzen tijdens de actieperiode voor deze uitvoeringen respectievelijk 49,99 euro en 109,99 euro. Microsoft heeft aan Tweakers.net laten weten dat er in Nederland en België geen pre-orderacties zullen plaatsvinden.

Microsoft has also announced that in some countries it will temporarily have extra low prices on pre-orders. For example, Home Premium will temporarily cost 49.99 dollar in the US and the Professional edition 99.99 dollar. In France and Germany the prices during this period for these editions will be respectively 49.99 euro and 109.99 euro. Microsoft has informed Tweakers.net that there will be no pre-order deals in The Netherlands and Belgium.

So I'm screwed. OEM will have to do :(

Yet you keep insisting on an aftermarket cooler anyway. Why is this even on the list?

For completeness, trying to list all the drawbacks, whether relevant to my personal situation or not. Most, I believe, are not. Also because it would require a more expensive aftermarket cooler.

On the OC bit, as I said, I will await the price developments and base it on that. The family I asked is at least in part reasonably informed (though not quite at your level). I do feel however that it is good to get opinions from several sides regardless.

As for the memory, looks like I'll be sticking with the last selection for now. Just above the bottom line for 1600MHz.

The Element G is already off the list. It has that fan dial. Very nice, I've had that before. And never actually used it. It's a pointless thing that's bound to get in my way. And I've grown on the S's appearance.


PS, I have actually considered a 2x80GB RAID system. Two disks still means greater risk than one though. Still, if it's worth the shot, I might as well. Any compatibility issues there, or other things I should know?

As for the memory, looks like I'll be sticking with the last selection for now. Just above the bottom line for 1600MHz.

This is the RAM I'm liking lately. G. Skill is a top quality brand, has good MB compatibility, and you won't find better pricing on such tightly timed DDR3 1600. You don't really get any benefit out of RAM higher than 1600 on an i7.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231272

The one you chose may be your best bet on that site though. I did a search for G. Skill and got no response.

So I'm screwed. OEM will have to do :(

You want me to order you a copy in the UK?

PS, I have actually considered a 2x80GB RAID system. Two disks still means greater risk than one though. Still, if it's worth the shot, I might as well. Any compatibility issues there, or other things I should know?

I'm not aware of any RAID compatibility issues between the ICH10 (the Southbridge on the X58 boards) and Intel SSDs. However, I've not yet succeeded in justifying the purchase of one SSD for myself, let alone two for RAID. It was just an idea, but in the end it might be easier to go with the single 160GB for the sake of ease. :)

i actually PM'd him syaing he could get 7 from amazon and pay for airmail.

The discount deal is still going on in Europe? as far as I can tell it sold out long ago in the US like in june when it came out, unless I am mistaken.

It's still going.

Although it's not as good a deal as it was:

When I ordered W7HP was £45. It's now £65. It's slowly creeping up as time passes. But it's still cheaper than OEM pricing ATM.

i actually PM'd him syaing he could get 7 from amazon and pay for airmail.

And responded. I'll be wanting the Dutch version. Unless shown otherwise, I think I'll have to assume there's no way to convert it just like that.

Well, my Win 7 RC allows me to install alternate language packs. I presume that the RTM allows the same...

Only Ultimate supports multiple languages.
That version would cost €175 from Amazon.co.uk, excluding shipping, and excluding possible import tax. Though that last one should be 0, since it's within the EU, right?

Still - Home Premium would cost half as much if I simply got it OEM. And I'd have it in the right language straight away. I don't think I'll have any need for the ultimate edition.

Had I known this before the prices went up from the really cheap level, I might've preordered the thing...