What should I Buy? 2405, 2005, ...

marty · Post by **marty** » 12 Feb 2006, 00:42

I have been saving up for the Dell 2405FPW, but I am only 15 and short on cash. I am not sure whether I should save up all the money to buy the 2405, then be broke, but with a great monitor, or just go for a 2005 and have money left over. The 2405 looks MUCH better from what I've seen, in not only size, but feautures as well. But there is a huge price difference. I currently have 400-600 bucks on hand and I am selling things on ebay, but next on my priority list is 2 GB of RAM because 1 GB is not cutting it any more and my 7800gtx's capabilities in BF@ have to be limited because setting absolutely everything to high takes up all of my RAM, especially with the bigger monitor.

BTW, I am currently using a very old 17" IMRI monitor that is terrible becasue I sold my dual 17" Acers.

Is there by any chance another monitor that would be a better bang for the buck?

Post by **Paradigm Shifter** » 12 Feb 2006, 01:02

In that sort of situation, where you're obviously gaming oriented, the 2005 will probably be better. Both are superb screens (are are many of the other widescreens available) but I'd go for the 2005 and have some cash left over.

I'm not really 'up' on all of the widescreens available now - I think the Dell's are still some of the best value ones. Coupons help even more, of course. ;)

You'll get a lot of arguments one way or the other here; every widescreen has it's supporters, and the Dell's are both very popular.

Post by **BongoTrumman** » 12 Feb 2006, 02:11

PS has a good point.

I voted other for HP L2335 becasue everyone just seems to forget about it :D. It is a good monitor :D.

But in your case I would listen to PS.

marty · Post by **marty** » 12 Feb 2006, 02:17

I just remembered - I will have an entire house full of stuff to sell on eBay next week (but at only 15% commission), so I will see if I can afford it after I sell that. Maybe I should ask for more % because 15 is very low for an eBay business.

xeones · Post by **xeones** » 12 Feb 2006, 04:01

i would stay away from the 2405 as it ghosts too much too enjoy fps games like BF2. I sent mine back and am looking for something else right now.

Post by **Tamlin** » 12 Feb 2006, 15:38

Check our sticky in the review section: Info: 2405fpw vs 2005fpw pros/cons/known issues

Also, there are excelent reviews of different other screens as well, where most fit into your pricerange.

Personally, I would advice you to wait a little since next generation LCD's are coming now, but if you need a screen now, go for the 2005fpw :)

Edit: Also check out Gilly's monitor list sticky on top of this page!

Post by **skipclarke** » 13 Feb 2006, 02:49

Other

HP L2335

Hp f2304

WidescreenFez · Post by **WidescreenFez** » 14 Feb 2006, 14:42

check out the nec 20wgx2 looks pretty good for gaming i.e - low response time

Reznick · Post by **Reznick** » 14 Feb 2006, 17:11

Another consideration is the Gateway FPD2185W. Seems to go on sale depending on where you look. Was $539 at Staples.Com, but it is back up to $599. It does not come with a DVI cable, so the monitor will cost a bit more if you need to purchase one. And if you decide to purchase an extended warranty, this will add even more cash to the total.

Advantages to this monitor is HDCP support (if you are not planning to buy another monitor for quite awhile), but also has some nice features related to HD (Farouda chip, etc.). Some have complained about banding issues, or how the monitor handles blacks, but everyone has their priorities. For me, the monitor is stellar. And is about an inch wider than the 2005FPW.

Based purely on cost, I'd go with the 2005. It is a nice looking monitor (had one at work for awhile) but have not used it for gaming. DougOfTheNorth's and Bongo's HP monitor recommendations are excellent ones, but I think their costs are outside your price range. If you want to be a bit more future proof (e.g., HDCP), the Gateway seems to be in the price range. The Dell 2405 (and soon to arrive 2407 with HDCP) are good deals for their size, but still out of the price range. To be honest, the 20-21" WS monitors seem to be just fine in terms of size.

BigTex71 · Post by **BigTex71** » 15 Feb 2006, 03:36

I would recommend you go with a lower priced unit (20-21") and use the extra cash to upgrade your video to get best results (native res, highest settings, AA/AF.)

I have a 2405 and love it, but I was able to upgrade my machine to be able to run native res. Many people find out that when you go with any of the higher res units (1920x1200 or higher), it ends up costing you a lot more in upgrades to help support your new craving for running everything in native res at high settings.

:D

marty · Post by **marty** » 15 Feb 2006, 04:29

thanks for the feedback guys, keep it coming. I will wait to make a final decision until I see how much money I have after the eBay stuff. Best case scenario: I buy 2405 AND I can afford another 7800gtx. Aside from the size, what considerations are there between the 2005 and 2405 in terms of gaming? I really would like to go with the larger one becasue I doubt I will raise this much money later and it is easier to return the larger one in favor of the smaller in case I am not happy with it than vice versa. Another option is to go for two 20" monitors. This is important because I probably won't get a new monitor after this for a long time.

The 20" used to seem so big to me, but now I have been thinking of the 24" so much that 20 inches sounds puny and much less tempting because it is just like my 17" with a little bit on the sides.

Maybe I should just clear my mind until I know how much cash I will have to spend.

pantsmachine · Post by **pantsmachine** » 15 Feb 2006, 14:51

Alright mate, at the risk of sounding patronising its great to hear from a 15 year old with his head screwed on well enough to take this approach before commiting to buy.

I went through the 20/24" indecision before xmas. First have you spent time making sure that the prices you are seeing are the most rock bottm scalped you can find. I ask this as i bought off of Ebay uk(some people don't like buying tech gear off there). The price difference was massive i saved about Ã‚Â£200 or $350 if your U.S.

I spent a couple of weeks looking at all available makes of 20/24" monitors and read all the reviews and it came down to save the cash and compromise or splurge and know it was the best at the time.

I received my 2405 on the 6th jan. I've got to say i have no regrets whatsoever in spending the extra on the bigger screen. I've seen 20" widescreens and they are nice enough but there really is a wow factor with the 24" which just isn't there in the 20" model.

I was worried that i would see a substandard image, i have read so many threads about ghosting and lag 'oh no the worlds going to end my screen ghosts'.
At the end of the day its the net we use for opinion and you never know if the people that are posting are truth tellers or just bullshit artists muddying the waters.
Anyway, plugged the screen in, fired up and instantly ran HL2 at 1920x1400. AMAZING to say the least, then ran chaos theory, farcry, doom 3, fable, battle for middle earth, Q4, CS-S & hours on BF2&BF2SF. Sadly my card isn't a powerhouse at 1920x1400 its only a X800XL but i saw no lag, ghosting or anything else to worry me and haven't since, only poor frame rates on some of the above games due to the card running out of steam so i force to a lower rez and live with it! Don't know if you have seen the HD demos of the Atlantis shuttle launches? One is at night and the other one during daylight. Ran them and they looked absolutely fantastic. I mention this as i assume you'll have it set up in your room and use for movies as well?

So that's movies & games. Brilliant, no complaints dual page surfing online makes you realize just what you were missing. Screen looks great, nice bezel,nice stand and all that. No noise, no pixel problems just a great bit of kit. Anyway that's enough from me, guess what i vote for the 2405FPW! Search my user name on ebay, you'll see i have one of these and am not trying to fill your head with crap. Good Luck whichever way you go.[/code]

marty · Post by **marty** » 15 Feb 2006, 17:54

Alright mate, at the risk of sounding patronising its great to hear from a 15 year old with his head screwed on well enough to take this approach before commiting to buy.

I went through the 20/24" indecision before xmas. First have you spent time making sure that the prices you are seeing are the most rock bottm scalped you can find. I ask this as i bought off of Ebay uk(some people don't like buying tech gear off there). The price difference was massive i saved about Ã‚Â£200 or $350 if your U.S.

I spent a couple of weeks looking at all available makes of 20/24" monitors and read all the reviews and it came down to save the cash and compromise or splurge and know it was the best at the time.

I received my 2405 on the 6th jan. I've got to say i have no regrets whatsoever in spending the extra on the bigger screen. I've seen 20" widescreens and they are nice enough but there really is a wow factor with the 24" which just isn't there in the 20" model.

I was worried that i would see a substandard image, i have read so many threads about ghosting and lag 'oh no the worlds going to end my screen ghosts'.
At the end of the day its the net we use for opinion and you never know if the people that are posting are truth tellers or just bullshit artists muddying the waters.
Anyway, plugged the screen in, fired up and instantly ran HL2 at 1920x1400. AMAZING to say the least, then ran chaos theory, farcry, doom 3, fable, battle for middle earth, Q4, CS-S & hours on BF2&BF2SF. Sadly my card isn't a powerhouse at 1920x1400 its only a X800XL but i saw no lag, ghosting or anything else to worry me and haven't since, only poor frame rates on some of the above games due to the card running out of steam so i force to a lower rez and live with it! Don't know if you have seen the HD demos of the Atlantis shuttle launches? One is at night and the other one during daylight. Ran them and they looked absolutely fantastic. I mention this as i assume you'll have it set up in your room and use for movies as well?

So that's movies & games. Brilliant, no complaints dual page surfing online makes you realize just what you were missing. Screen looks great, nice bezel,nice stand and all that. No noise, no pixel problems just a great bit of kit. Anyway that's enough from me, guess what i vote for the 2405FPW! Search my user name on ebay, you'll see i have one of these and am not trying to fill your head with crap. Good Luck whichever way you go.

Excellent post, m8. I am now leaning even more sharply toward the 2405. Thanks for the compliment (I have heard that many times. On one forum, people thought I was in my 20s for around 6 months until I told them I was 13). I am American, BTW. I have been looking on eBay, but Dell is always having sales and for something of this price, I would like the peace of mind of buying from them or another retail store. It doesn't look like I can save THAT much on eBay anyway. I have a chart tracking how much money I have saved up and it is a t $465 right now. I am going to florida on Friday for a week and that number may drop in the intervening time. Then I will get the eBay money.

How much commission should I charge? I made a graph of the amount I will have to sell at various rates of commission and since it is a hyperbolic curve, it has a steep point. My current rate of 15% is right near the top of the steep section of the graph, so that is not too good.

fugaz · Post by **fugaz** » 15 Feb 2006, 21:23

i would stay away from the 2405 as it ghosts too much too enjoy fps games like BF2. I sent mine back and am looking for something else right now.

Really cannot agree with this. I play UT2004 on a relative high level (and this game is really fast paced) and have NO problem with ghosting or whatever. I play FPS's since a really long time now (started with ROTT, Duke3d,Doom2,Quake), several years on different CRT's and now on a 2405 since half a year. Never looked back to CRT times.. this TFT was the best investment I ever made (beats every CPU,GPU,etc upgrade).. only downside it had was me spending even MORE time on the pc lol ;) )

Post by **Tamlin** » 15 Feb 2006, 22:33

[quote]i would stay away from the 2405 as it ghosts too much too enjoy fps games like BF2. I sent mine back and am looking for something else right now.

Really cannot agree with this. I play UT2004 on a relative high level (and this game is really fast paced) and have NO problem with ghosting or whatever. I play FPS's since a really long time now (started with ROTT, Duke3d,Doom2,Quake), several years on different CRT's and now on a 2405 since half a year. Never looked back to CRT times.. this TFT was the best investment I ever made (beats every CPU,GPU,etc upgrade).. only downside it had was me spending even MORE time on the pc lol ;) )

Or you can agree to disagree. :) Information indicates that the panel do ghost, but it obviously differs how intrusive different people experience it. As you probably know, the panel must be underneath 16.67 ms at all times to acheive resolution @ 60fpw without ghosting/blurring. Not to patronise anyone, but to make it simple, here's the math: 1 second = 1000 ms, 1000 ms / 60 (fps) = 16,67 ms per frame.

The 2405fpw is reported as 16 ms Black to white (BtW) and 12 ms grey to grey (GtG). According to specs, it should not ghost/blur @60fps. Many have however experienced ghosting/blurring. One of them is Toms Hardware which tested the 2405FPW. According to their tests, it didn't even reach 12 ms once on GtG, I wonder how it would look if the would have taken shades of black... They didn't test the black to white here.

From Toms Hardware link

2405fpw grey to grey (12 ms according to specs):

Many even here have reported ghosting with the 2405fpw and many have said it doesn't ghost. Many have started hating Toms Hardware after this test BTW :P Its a 2405fpw fanboys review from Hell. :lol::lol::lol: I take most reviews with a pinch of salt, including this one, but I don't want to dismiss the findings without having similar tests to prove the oposite. its not just Toms hardware, when ordinary people experience the same, there must be something in it. Maybe they used the same panel as in the 243t in some screens? I know several others Apple's cinema displays had both 16ms and 25 ms panels out there. Even my own screen were listed as 25 ms some places and 16 ms some places and there are two different manuals from before and after certain serials. (check HP's homepage if you don't believe me and look f2304 up). Many plausible explainations, but if you want to say he is wrong, then many want more proof. :)

fugaz · Post by **fugaz** » 15 Feb 2006, 23:43

Many plausible explainations, but if you want to say he is wrong, then many want more proof. :)

First thanks for the info. Good read!

I guess it's a personal thing yes, some experience ghosting, some don't. But to claim the 2405 is not suitable in case you play a lot of FPS games is just not true imho :) Especially in a game like UT this "heavy ghosting" would make it totaly unplayable and it just doesn't. It plays the exact same as on my previous Iiyama HM204DT 22" CRT.

Could it also be this ghosting differs a bit from screen to screen (I have a revision 1.9 Samsung panel .. seen some people with 1.8 and/or 2.0)?

Post by **Tamlin** » 16 Feb 2006, 06:49

[quote]Many plausible explainations, but if you want to say he is wrong, then many want more proof. :)

First thanks for the info. Good read!

I guess it's a personal thing yes, some experience ghosting, some don't. But to claim the 2405 is not suitable in case you play a lot of FPS games is just not true imho :) Especially in a game like UT this "heavy ghosting" would make it totaly unplayable and it just doesn't. It plays the exact same as on my previous Iiyama HM204DT 22" CRT.

Could it also be this ghosting differs a bit from screen to screen (I have a revision 1.9 Samsung panel .. seen some people with 1.8 and/or 2.0)?

Thank you :) People are often very emotionally attached to their hardware, so its very hard to bring out information without offending people. But, a good forum should bring out all information IMO :)

I also think that the ghosting might differ from screen to screen as you say. As mentioned in the article at Toms hardware:

The latency of this panel has been specified sometimes as 25 ms, sometimes 8 ms G2G (grey to grey), so it's difficult to know what to believe.

Also from our factfinding mission if the 2405fpw support HD over components(it doesn't officially), we discovered that some actually do. I am at least convinced after FramerateUK's tests. John, the administrator of [H]ardforum were very convinsing that his 2405fpw didn't support HD over components. Its a possibility that the 2405fpw can have different panels inside, and if they have the 25 ms variant, it has to be the same panel as in the 243T. This panel is 25 ms BtW according sales specs and 30 ms according to the datasheets of the panel itself (17/13, Tr/Tf).

BigTex71 · Post by **BigTex71** » 16 Feb 2006, 18:03

As far as the Tom's Hardware review (or any review for that matter):
The difference some people see may actually be differences in the panels themselves (quality control issue.) I know it would not be realistic to do this, but if they looked at 5-10 of each type of monitor they may see differences between them. So if you see a review site that says the 2405 kicks @$$, then they may have a better panel than a review site that had lower results. Or it could be that some are less susceptible to seeing it than others.

I don't see ghosting on my 2405, but that doesn't mean there is absolutely no ghosting on it. It could be that I don't notice ghosting (or my eyes do not translate what I see as ghosting), but someone else my be next to me looking at my panel and think they see ghosting.

This whole ghosting issue kind of reminds me of the DLP front projectors and the 'rainbow effect' some people see, while others do not see it. I do notice some rainbow effect with my Infocus 4805 projector in the right conditions... but my wife says she can not see anything like what I describe to her that the rainbow effect is.

To make a long story short.... well, too late..

:D

Post by **Tamlin** » 17 Feb 2006, 10:03

I totally agree that a test of several screens would decrease margine of error. Especially if the screens were of different revisions too. I doubt that would happen though. :(

The biggest margine of error is human perception IMO. People are very adaptive and even sounds that you can hear at once, some don't hear at all. You can get used to almost everything... Then you also have those who refuses to see anything good or bad with the hardware, like the monkeys "hear no evil, say no evil, see no evil". "Selective perception" is the english expression I believe.

Then you have those who are either bought, or biast of other reasons... Am I being paranoid? No, its happening on daily basis... Take a look at this if you think that big companies are respectable and don't play dirty.

Samsung delivers good products IMO, but they have a VERY "creative" marketing department.... :P

As shown earlier, the Samsung 243T was marketed as a 25 ms panel (link by Samsung themselves. Their own tests (PDF datasheet of the LTM240W1L03 panel shows that the 243T uses are 30 ms [17ms Tr+ 13 ms Tf) (and its not the only panel Samsung have done this with...). If you google the 243T, you'll see many claim no ghosting both in reviews and as persons. Almost in the same wording as with the 2405FPW... ;)

Now, the stench of faul play follows to the LTM240M1 panel as the 2405FPW uses. Its marketed as a panel with a contrast of 1000:1 and brightness of 500. This I found earlier. The domain (WESTECH ELECTRONIC Corporation)has expired, so its probably a matter of time before its removed from google cache... Extremetech also measured the screen at below 700:1(612:1), so they took 700:1 and 400 cdm2 and sold it as 1000:1 500 cdm2. Did they also do a little response time trick as last time? It looks like it from Toms Hardware's tests.

These are only tip of the iceberg IMO. Every time I check Samsung Datasheet vs. "salessheet" the numbers have been decorated a bit...

Ghosting only matters if you see it or if it disturbes your gameplay. Of course, for some it matters when showing off screen also. Still, I feel that its a bit blown up.

What I feel matters, is that companies and reviewers should be a bit more honest about their numbers and experiences. Granted that reviewers need their extra income and companies don't do charity, there should still be more standards and laws to protect consumers from being screwed by manufacturers "decoration" of specs.

In the spirit of the Olympic Games, I have one message to manufacturers: "STOP FEEDING YOUR SPECS WITH STEROIDS!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

marty · Post by **marty** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:22

$585 :D

Widescreen Gaming Forum