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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2006, 19:46 
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Joined: 02 Oct 2006, 18:34
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well, the only thing you guys get is "the cool feeling" because of expensive and cool hardware and you support the industry...but its a question of taste.


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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2006, 20:55 
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well, the only thing you guys get is "the cool feeling" because of expensive and cool hardware and you support the industry...but its a question of taste.


am i correct in thinking that you helped contribute to microsoft by purchasing a pc with windows on it? and samsung for your screen?

spending lots of money on quality pc components to some seems crazy. My psu has a 5 year warranty, at least purchasing a high end product gives you some guarantees.

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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2006, 21:10 
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Joined: 16 Sep 2006, 12:18
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I think I get a M12 600. Seems to be the best PSU out there at the moment.

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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2006, 21:45 
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a friend has one

its alrite. quiet, seems to be stable

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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2006, 23:23 
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Bear in mind efficiency ratings too.

Ignore amp ratings for the minute.

Say your PSU is a 400w job, and your PC theoretically draws 380w at full load. You'd think that would be fine, right?

Wrong.

The PSU would have to be >95% efficient for that to be true. Most of the good ones only hover around the 85% mark, so the max it can really give you is 340w. So you're over your limit by 40w - and your PC is gonna do some very strange things at full load. It might lock up. It might crash. It might corrupt something on the HDD.

To make your PSU safe at full load, you'd need a 450w PSU minimum. Remember that PSUs are gonna get hotter, control power stability worse and have a shorter overall life the closer you run them to the maximum, and the reasoning behind these huge PSUs suddenly becomes a little more sensible.

I'm not saying that for Gilly's system he needs the expensive PSU he's got running it; but it eases the stress on all the components if the PSU is happy and good quality.

Using the Extreme PSU calculator, I ran my high end rig through it; that sucker draws 503watts on completely full load when overclocked! :shock: I'm actually running my PSU very close to what I would consider the level needed for an upgrade - and it's a 580w power supply.

If I was running crossfire or a watercooling setup to clock the CPU even higher, I'd want at least a 750w PSU...


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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2006, 23:46 
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i think the wattage rating is on the output side, so 380w on a 400w would work. But, how much stress do you want on the PSU?

precisely. if i spend money on a 1000w PSU it will be ~40% usage at full load on my rig. If i were to spend a lot less on a 650w Qtec say, it would be fully stretched. The 650w wasnt a real 650w, and the output isnt at a working temperature, the psu will be more likely to fail and cause component damage, precisely why i got a big beefy psu int he first place

_________________
P8Z68-V Pro | 2600K | HR02 | HD5850 | 2x4GB Vengeance LP | 128GB M4 + 6TB | X-Fi > HD595 | AX850 | Tai Chi | PB278Q | G110 + Deathadder 2013
P8Z77-V | 3570K | Mugen 2 | HD5850 | 2x4GB Vengeance LP | 500GB | X-750 | Fractal R3 | U2212HM | G110 + G400
P8H77-I | G860 | 4650 | 2x2GB XMS | 320GB | CX500 | Prodigy | T22B350EW | MX518
DC3217IYE | 1x4GB Vengeance | 64GB M4 | TX-42VT20E


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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2006, 19:01 
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Joined: 01 Dec 2005, 06:06
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Bear in mind efficiency ratings too.

Say your PSU is a 400w job, and your PC theoretically draws 380w at full load. You'd think that would be fine, right?

The PSU would have to be >95% efficient for that to be true. Most of the good ones only hover around the 85% mark, so the max it can really give you is 340w.


I'm sorry but you need to read up on power supplies and rethink those statements as they are not correct.

Take a look at page 4 of this review.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article656-page4.html

Notice how the 650W power supply is taking in 820 watts from the wall (AC input) and giving 650 watts to the rest of the PC (Total DC output)?

I could link to similar charts for other power supplies but I'm hoping you can get the truth from one example.

You might also notice that a power supply that claims up to 88% effeciency will only do that in a cool room in Europe (or at least not in my part of the US). The reason for that is that power supplies are more effecient when plugged into a 220v wall plug like you'd find in Europe than they are at 120v like you would find in the US.

Furthermore they lose effeciency at higher temps. So if your system is overheating you won't be able to get the rated power out of them. But if that is the case you can just add more case fans, buy a different case, or change your Air Conditioner settings in your house.

It is true that you don't want a 380w load on a 400w power supply but that has nothing to do with the backwards math you are using for power effeciency.

The reality is that the S12-550 Energy+ model can handle a 500 watt load but it will be more effecient and quieter at 200 watt load.

For long term energy usage, reliability, expanability/scalability, it is best to give your PSU some head room. Don't buy the Seasonic 330w when the Seasonic 380w is about the same price. Consider the 430w, 500w or 550w Seasonic if the connectors are needed and you want room for growth.

Just rember quality isn't always directly related to price. If there is hardware out there that won't run on a S12-650 E+ then it is to far outside of mainstream for me to even consider it. And don't assume that if it won't run on some other company's 850 watt unit that it won't run on a Seasonic 650 watt unit.


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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2006, 19:56 
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Joined: 16 Sep 2006, 12:18
Posts: 121
Yes I would completely agree with that.

@Paradigm Shifter
Most of the good ones only hover around the 85% mark, so the max it can really give you is 340w

I'm only aware of one single PSU which is capable of nearly 85% (84,3) and that is the Seasonic S12 EnergyPlus. Most current PSUs are around 69-80%. There are not much PSUs which pass "80+" and keep this efficiency through various load states.
Using the Extreme PSU calculator, I ran my high end rig through it; that sucker draws 503watts on completely full load when overclocked! Shocked I'm actually running my PSU very close to what I would consider the level needed for an upgrade - and it's a 580w power supply.

Sorry but I've seen Quadcore + 7900GTX SLI configs running smooth with OC on 600W PSUs. When your A64 with one single X1950XTX powers nearly 500W something might be wrong. Maybe the ATI squeezes to much power or you have some other power-eating peripherals on the plug (like 10 hard drives or sth. like that).

Every current config (except Quad-SLI+Pentium 4 maybe) can be powered by a 600W PSU. 1000Ws are just extreme overkill. This is maybe needed to power the world record rigs, but not the average High-Ender.
To make your PSU safe at full load, you'd need a 450w PSU minimum.

There is a Seasonic S12 430W which would power most rigs out there sufficiently.;) I have a 480W and it powers my rig very well. My rig may equal yours in power consumption except the ATI-hunger.

All other things I would like to reply are perfectly descibed by dhanson865. :)

btw: When I'm surfing on hardforums for PSUs I repeatingly recognise the hype for almost completely ridiculous PSU-Power advices. They are argueing about 750W, 850W and more without even running OC and SLI/CF. :roll:

one thing to add:
Of course, if you have a cheap PSU for 40€ with 600W on the package it might fail even under 380W load. But an excellent PSU like Seasonic, Tagan or Enermax 600W will power 550 or 580W stable and for a longer time although I would'nt recommend this. But which PC drops 550W real load? :roll: ...no idea for desktop PCs...

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Intel i7 980X | MSI Big Bang Xpower X58 | 12GB G.Skill Pi Black DDR3-1600 | Sapphire 5870 Vapor-X 2GB | 2x Intel X-25M 160GB | SB X-Fi | Seasonic X-750 | Silverstone FT01 black | 3x HP ZR24w @ 5760x1200 Triplehead

AMD X2 4800+ | Gigabyte K8N Ultra-SLI | 2GB Kingston VS DDR1-400 | Zotac GTX260 AMP! + Gigabyte 8400GS | 3x Samsung HD 2.1TB | SB X-Fi | Seasonic M12-600 | Chieftec CS-601 blue | Dell 2407WFP + Dell 1707FP Dualhead


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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2006, 21:49 
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I'm sorry but you need to read up on power supplies and rethink those statements as they are not correct.

Fair one. :) Learn something new everyday. ;)

Sorry but I've seen Quadcore + 7900GTX SLI configs running smooth with OC on 600W PSUs. When your A64 with one single X1950XTX powers nearly 500W something might be wrong. Maybe the ATI squeezes to much power or you have some other power-eating peripherals on the plug (like 10 hard drives or sth. like that).

For all I know, I could have got some of the things in the calc program ticked when I didn't mean to - I just did it quickly and didn't double check - but when my CPU overclocked draws 168w according to the PSU calc (Opteron 170 stock 2000MHz 1.35v vCore to 2600MHz 1.4v vCore) I can kinda believe it if it was everything right at full load...

Also bear in mind that I didn't say I'd plugged in a wall watt-draw tester - that was just working it out on the calculator. :)


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 Post subject: PSU Sticky
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2006, 22:13 
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[quote]I'm sorry but you need to read up on power supplies and rethink those statements as they are not correct.

Fair one. :) Learn something new everyday. ;)

Sorry but I've seen Quadcore + 7900GTX SLI configs running smooth with OC on 600W PSUs. When your A64 with one single X1950XTX powers nearly 500W something might be wrong. Maybe the ATI squeezes to much power or you have some other power-eating peripherals on the plug (like 10 hard drives or sth. like that).

For all I know, I could have got some of the things in the calc program ticked when I didn't mean to - I just did it quickly and didn't double check - but when my CPU overclocked draws 168w according to the PSU calc (Opteron 170 stock 2000MHz 1.35v vCore to 2600MHz 1.4v vCore) I can kinda believe it if it was everything right at full load...

Also bear in mind that I didn't say I'd plugged in a wall watt-draw tester - that was just working it out on the calculator. :)

168w TDP not usage. in reality its much lower consumption. 168w of heat would be insane. and well beyond its output imo

_________________
P8Z68-V Pro | 2600K | HR02 | HD5850 | 2x4GB Vengeance LP | 128GB M4 + 6TB | X-Fi > HD595 | AX850 | Tai Chi | PB278Q | G110 + Deathadder 2013
P8Z77-V | 3570K | Mugen 2 | HD5850 | 2x4GB Vengeance LP | 500GB | X-750 | Fractal R3 | U2212HM | G110 + G400
P8H77-I | G860 | 4650 | 2x2GB XMS | 320GB | CX500 | Prodigy | T22B350EW | MX518
DC3217IYE | 1x4GB Vengeance | 64GB M4 | TX-42VT20E


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