Widescreen Gaming Forum

with sli ultra's? :shock: Something must really be wrong with your setup!

You can get real performance by this. If your machine doesn't achieve 60fps, and you use Vsync, it will be capped at half (30fps). Since Vsync is governed by the given refresh rate, I would think that having a larger refresh rate should make Vsync cap the refresh rate at 50hz (from 100hz).

This just applies when running your applictations double buffered. This problem will disappear if you run triple buffering.
http://tech.vault9.net/forums/How_Vsync_Works_And_Why_People_Loathe_It-t22524.html

The black frame insertion given by some of the "100hz" screen have a function. The black frame inbetween the regular frames helps "clearing" your eyes retina, so movment seems smoother to the eye. :)

Do you have any source to this black frames? I hope we are speaking regular monitors and not CRT tv's with 50Hz interlaced input and 100Hz refresh rate.

[quote]
You can get real performance by this. If your machine doesn't achieve 60fps, and you use Vsync, it will be capped at half (30fps). Since Vsync is governed by the given refresh rate, I would think that having a larger refresh rate should make Vsync cap the refresh rate at 50hz (from 100hz).

This just applies when running your applictations double buffered. This problem will disappear if you run triple buffering.
http://tech.vault9.net/forums/How_Vsync_Works_And_Why_People_Loathe_It-t22524.html

I was looking for the same primer to show you. :lol:
Buffering is used to AVOID a lower cap when Vsync is on. This you can read in the primer above. If you are mostly above the given cap, as 60hz/60fps for example, then it will use from the framebuffer at the times when it drops below 60fps. Without it, it will be capped at 60fps, but drop to 30fps each time it cannot render 60fps. BUT, if you normally are below 60fps, then you will still be capped to 30fps even with tripple buffering on. Read the primer again and you'll understand. :)

The black frame insertion given by some of the "100hz" screen have a function. The black frame inbetween the regular frames helps "clearing" your eyes retina, so movment seems smoother to the eye. :)

Do you have any source to this black frames? I hope we are speaking regular monitors and not CRT tv's with 50Hz interlaced input and 100Hz refresh rate.

Here is one: 241WZ :)

First, from your article regarding framedrops when running 75Hz.

The article isn't really scientific in their testing methods and doesn't even write out which monitors they've tested the 60/75Hz on.

I would gladly test out my monitors in the same way as they did if it's scientific enough. I have a fast system camera. Just give me something to test with.


I've read the part of triple buffering several times now and it doesn't have anything that say it would drop down to half (a third or a quarter etc) of the given framerate. The only thing you can read out is that triple buffering solves the problem, let me quoute it for the sake;

There is a technique called triple-buffering that solves this VSync problem. Lets go back to our 50FPS, 75Hz example. Frame 1 is in the frame buffer, and 2/3 of frame 2 are drawn in the back buffer. The refresh happens and frame 1 is grabbed for the first time. The last third of frame 2 are drawn in the back buffer, and the first third of frame 3 is drawn in the second back buffer (hence the term triple-buffering). The refresh happens, frame 1 is grabbed for the second time, and frame 2 is copied into the frame buffer and the first part of frame 3 into the back buffer. The last 2/3 of frame 3 are drawn in the back buffer, the refresh happens, frame 2 is grabbed for the first time, and frame 3 is copied to the frame buffer. The process starts over. This time we still got 2 frames, but in only 3 refresh cycles. That's 2/3 of the refresh rate, which is 50FPS, exactly what we would have gotten without it. Triple-buffering essentially gives the video card someplace to keep doing work while it waits to transfer the back buffer to the frame buffer, so it doesn't have to waste time. Unfortunately, triple-buffering isn't available in every game, and in fact it isn't too common. It also can cost a little performance to utilize, as it requires extra VRAM for the buffers, and time spent copying all of them around. However, triple-buffered VSync really is the key to the best experience as you eliminate tearing without the downsides of normal VSync

If you read the text about the monitor you showed, you can clearly see that this has nothing to do with the input refresh rate or normal cases, it's just something this monitor does, almost as the 50hz crt with 100hz refresh rate.


Let's quote from http://www.behardware.com/articles/646-2/benq-fp241wz-1rst-lcd-with-screening.html

The images received at 60 Hz are duplicated twice for a refreshing frequency of 120 Hz instead of 60 Hz.

Now, this is a fully normal TFT monitor in the way that it is taking 60Hz input and it aint showing any more information on the screen than any other. The features don't have anything to do with what we're discussing here. It's just a visual feature.

At 0 hz, the GFX card wouldn't transmit a single picture, so you'll see nothing. At 60hz with a non moving picture, you will not notice any change to 200hz (provided that your screen would accept that refresh and not display out of sync). This is because a LCD doesn't need to constantly draw the picture (CRT's redraw the picture at given refresh rate per second). A LCD, even though it scans progressively, it doesn't change the pixels state as long as there is no change in shade.

The 0Hz was supposed to be a joke that we could use any still picture with backlight and you can't see any difference from xHz refresh rate.

Regarding redraw and flicker in the CRT I've already stated that it isn't what I'm trying to discuss here, just what information is shown on your screen at which time.

Why did you mention that LCD scans progressively, CRT does too. (well not TV's and really old computer monitors)

Hi again, I actually did a test with 60Hz vs 75Hz.

First I downloaded mouse recorder and recorded when my mouse was standing still at one point and dragged over the screen to stand still at another point.

I took photos of this with a shutter time slow enough to capture all the frames between the start and end point.

Running at 60Hz this usually became 7 pointers at 75Hz this usually became 9 pointers.

If you do some simple math you can see that it corresponds well to 60 and 75Hz

75/60=1.25
9/7=1.29

This is of course not the most scientific test but I made several shoots at both 60Hz and 75Hz clearly showing that at least the pointer is updated more times as the refresh rate is raised.

[quote]
You can get real performance by this. If your machine doesn't achieve 60fps, and you use Vsync, it will be capped at half (30fps). Since Vsync is governed by the given refresh rate, I would think that having a larger refresh rate should make Vsync cap the refresh rate at 50hz (from 100hz).

This just applies when running your applictations double buffered. This problem will disappear if you run triple buffering.
http://tech.vault9.net/forums/How_Vsync_Works_And_Why_People_Loathe_It-t22524.html

The black frame insertion given by some of the "100hz" screen have a function. The black frame inbetween the regular frames helps "clearing" your eyes retina, so movment seems smoother to the eye. :)

Do you have any source to this black frames? I hope we are speaking regular monitors and not CRT tv's with 50Hz interlaced input and 100Hz refresh rate.

Nice link, very good explanation of vsync. 1 question though, how do I make sure triple buffering is always enabled? So far the only settings I've found related to opengl only, not direct3d.

Nice link, very good explanation of vsync. 1 question though, how do I make sure triple buffering is always enabled? So far the only settings I've found related to opengl only, not direct3d.

DXTweaker can fix this
http://www.ocworkbench.com/2006/articles/DXtweaker/

D3D Overrider should be able to do this too.

There is also a setting for enable triple buffering inside the nvidia control panel.

Manage 3D-settings -> Global Settings -> Triple Buffering [Enable]

As far as I can tell the nvidia built-in setting only purtains to opengl, or at least that's what I can figure as nhancer lists it as 'opengl->triple buffering'. I'll try those 2 apps though.

Can I just take this opportunity to say that the FAQ was meant to be a 'community effort' so to have people offering information for it is a good thing. ;)

We can't get all the info if those that know it don't share. :)

I have gone ahead and updated the FAQ with the new version I worked up. We can make future revisions as needed.